Empty the Bench

sounds like you love your stats, so let me give you some others: kobe led the lakers to above 50% in both 05-06 and 06-07 with kwame brown in the frontcourt. and in 04-05 they were missing phil jackson. get your facts right. so if you cant even get those numbers right, how do you expect me to belive the other numbers youve regurgitated here?

i cannot believe your trying to take away from his last season, when bynum went out with the injury, he held the lakers afloat through the allstar break until they ’stole’ pau from memphis. you must have been asleep last season when he IMMEDIATELY gelled with pau gasol to win the last 13 or so games in the season to get the best record ahead of the hornets.

you also said that the lakers average more posessions, and this is the reason kobe averages more points. so why haven’t you also pointed out that wade would average more assists because he handles the ball on pretty much every play? you cannot factor some things into stats, which is why i think they are the worst thing to use to determine who is the better player.

did you even consider that the triangle offense needs a dominant passing big man? or that lebron is so good at drive-and-kick plays that he’s bound to rack up assists with shooters like west, williams, big z, and szerbiak? and by the way lebron only just hit his first game winning shot this year against the warriors.

i just dont get it. when kobe is letting it fly like he was before the gasol days, people call him a ball hog. but when dwayne wade does essentially the same thing with a few more assists, everyone loves him because of his personality, not because of his basketball. and then when kobe gets some good players on his team and starts to defer to them, you go out and write some bullsh*t like this.

i will agree with you on one thing, kobe is not as good a playmaker as lebron/wade/cp3. he’s a pure scorer, everyone knows that. but when it comes to winning games, kobe is just as good (if not better) than either of them.

i could go on all day breaking down the stats you have put up but i dont want to waste my time.

in conclusion, lebron will win this year because he has been better than kobe (not just statistically), and his team has the best record.

i dont expect kobe to win it two years in a row around the likes of lebron and co.

rant over.

Here, here. About time somebody came out and said it.

This is Zach’s first post as a contributing writer for ETB, and it’s certainly a controversial one. We’re looking forward to more from him over the next few months. Welcome to Empty the Bench, Zach.

For the record, I don’t think he should take home the trophy this year, but I was firmly in Kobe’s corner for MVP last season.

Andrew

1) Kobe is actually NOT who you want with the ball at the end of a close game. This website breaks down game-tying/winning shots over the past 5 years through February 5 ((http://www.82games.com/gamewinningshots.htm). Bryant is near the top of the list with 14 game winners. But his .250 shooting percentage when it’s all on the line put him below the league average and virtually everyone else on the list who you’d expect to take those shots. Also, Kobe’s 1-5 A-TO rate is the worst on the list of anyone with at least 1 assist during these crucial seconds. He hit a lot of game winners for one reason: he shoots so many of them, but he’s still worse than the league as a whole at actually making them.

2) Are you actually trying to argue that Kobe needs a dominant passing big man and an amazing coach to be successful? I think we’re on the same page here.

3) Bryant hardly kept the Lakers afloat last season between Bynum’s injury and Gasol’s arrival. They were 25-11 before Bynum was lost and only 5-5 in the gap before Gasol showed up. From that point on, they were 22-4 with Gasol in the lineup. And during the 10 games the big Spaniard missed in late-March? Back to the same 5-5. Bryant “keeping them afloat” actually would have kept the Lakers out of the playoffs.

4) Lebron is good at the drive-and-kick because he’s actually willing to kick.

1.) two time nba scoring champion 06-07

2.) six time all defensive first team

3.) 9 in a row 40+ points because he wanted too

4.) his stats maybe just slightly lower (because if not he’s a ball hog right?) but, name one player who can stop him from scoring at will

5.) he has been doing it for 12 years with 11 playoffs

6.) he has been regard as one of the best the whole time while everyone is still trying to reach the top with him and break the multiple records he holds

The goal of basketball is to win. With all of Kobe’s accolades, why does his team win at the same rate regardless of if he plays or not? Jacking bad shoots, not feeding the post, and consistently averaging more turnovers + fouls than assists (find another good guard who does that year-after-year) does not help a team win.

And about this no-player-can-stop-him nonsense: if this was true, his teams would be over .500 when he plays without great posts, his shooting percentages would be much better, and he wouldn’t have the worst crunch-time shooting percentage and A-TO rate of anyone noteworthy.

You are an example of why I don’t like the Blazers any more, your fans are the biggest Kobe-haters since the Kings.

If he shoots a lot, scores 35 a game, he’s a ballhog. If he doesn’t have the stats, then he doesn’t deserve anything. What does he have to do to get any credit from you? Remember that you included crunch-time stats from the past 5 years, three of which (where the majority of crunch-time heroics was needed) were without any real star on the team, so he was the focal point of the defense at all times. If you look beyond stats and into the surroundings, you’ll see just how amazing it is that Kobe was able to score so much with smush and kwame. I don’t think Kobe deserves the MVP this year either, but you can’t just talk stats without context. Your stats are also very misleading. If you pick and choose what years should count (without a good big man vs. with a big man, one of the most important positions in basketball), then I could similarly say
Lebron James with a “good” point guard, Mo Milliams: 80% win percentage.
without Mo Williams: 54% win percentage.

Let’s hope all your future posts have a little more thought into them and please try not to seem so biased. As Jeremy posted above, it’s as if you just hate the guy. It must be hard to enjoy this great game if you can’t even what one of the best in the game has to offer.

Well played Mr.Zachariah.Well played indeed.Now, allow me to present my rebuttals:

1) Lamar Odom and Scottie Pippen?? When it’s been well established that Pip’s one of the 40 Greatest of All Time and Lamar’s at his best when he’s the Third Banana?? Really?? Well, ppg and rpg are such crude tools, wouldn’t you agree?? Let’s go for some “advanced” stats, shall we?? With an average Usage %age of 25.04, Pip’s clearly a more important player to the Bulls than Lamar has been to the Lakers, as seen by his Usage %age of 20.7. And Pip does much much more with his extra possessions posting a PER of 21.3 compared to Odom’s 16.76. Crucially though, Pip’s TO% is lesser compared to Odom although he uses up four more possessions. Pip blows Odom out of the water in the defensive categories posting an average DRtg of 102.5 compared to Odom’s 105.2. And please, Odom’s a Power Forward, and he’s supposed to outrebound a perimeter player like Pip. For God’s sake Pip blocks the same number of shots per game while averaging twice the number of steals per game. I really can’t stress this enough, u effed up Zach. Big time.

2) I’m curious as to who these mythical players are who’re supposed to carry the team entirely on their shoulders with no help. LeBron?? Well Ilgauskas and Mo Williams combined with the most stifling defense this side of Boston doesn’t count for much huh?? And the defense part was true in seasons past (team rating 11th in 07-08 due to the mid-season trade;4th in 06-07), when LeBron’s D was considered to be one of the areas where he trailed Kobe. MJ had Pip and Grant during the first three-peat and Pip and Rodman during the second three-peat. Prior to Pip’s addition Jordan endured seasons of 40-42 and 38-44. So I guess Jordan’s claim to being the Greatest Player of All Time is null and void due to these seasons of futility, where he toiled without any help??? (And btw MJ had Orlando Woolridge in the 38 win season who averaged 23 points and 5.6 rpg on 55% shooting.I’m guessing MJ’s status as the GOAT is in serious jeopardy due to this,huh,Zach??)

3) D-Wade,CP3 and D-12 have all had seasons for the ages. And I have no shame in admitting that Kobe was significantly out-performed by them, individually. However, Wade uses up around 36 percent of his team’s possessions which is just obscenely selfish. Now when Kobe lit up the league in 05-06 for 30 ppg he was roundly criticized for being selfish, which I understand. While now, Wade’s been feted for essentially being as selfish as Kobe was (36.2 US% vs 38.7 US%)?? Dwight has significant and recurring problems with turnovers (15.1 TOV%) and free throw shooting (59.4 %) which render him a late game nonentity, not to mention his propensity of being a bit of a black hole (7.3 AST %). CP3, I admit is having a tornado of a season and is richly deserving of all the kudos bestowed on him. Believe me as a Laker acolyte(more specifically Magic Johnson’s acolyte), praising another PG is tantamount to adultery but CP3 is single handedly destroying the Lig at a rate unheard of.

4) I hate to say this Mr.Blott, but your dismissal of Kobe’s rather fine season in 08-09 and ruling him out as a future MVP candidate reeks of half-baked research and flimsy excuses. A very-poorly executed hatchet job sir.

A lot of people have all sorts of statistics that seemingly demonstrate that Kobe is great. None of these stats, however, have anything to do with making the Lakers win.

I think we all agree that a great player is one who will greatly improve his team’s ability to win games. With that being said, can someone please explain:
1) Why the Lakers were 23-25 (.479) with Kobe and no Shaq, 32-10 (.762) with Shaq and no Kobe, and 262-101 (.721) with both on the floor from 1998-2004?
2) Why the 07-08 Lakers went 25-11 with Bynum on the team, 5-5 in the gap between Bynum and Gasol, 22-4 with Gasol in the lineup, and 5-5 when Gasol missed games if Kobe was the main reason they won the West?
3) Why the Lakers’ best year in his time with the team was 1999-2000 (67-15), the same year Kobe missed his career-high amount of games in a season?
4) Why the Lakers were 111-111 with Kobe playing and a not-too-far-off 10-14 without him from 2004-2007? By the way, 14 of the 24 teams they played were .500 or above, so guess what the expected amount of wins for a .500 team was for those games?

I would like for anyone to show me any statistic that shows the Lakers win more games with Kobe than without him. It’s that simple.

Oh, also, what was the siginificance of Kobe finally being inserted into the Lakers’ starting lineup as soon as Jackson arrived??? Oh, yeah, 3 STRAIGHT NBA TITLES

Get over it man. Kobe is a proven winner, and he has proven that he has grown up and become a better person in the last 5 years than Shaq has, that is for damn sure. And when he goes back to the Finals this year, and wins, then he will have gone to the Finals TWICE without Shaq. Which would leave him with the same number of titles (4) as Shaq within the same number of Finals appearances (5)

This is a truly outrageous post, posted by an obvious kobe hater.

You talk about lebron not having any help?
So i’m guessing that mo williams is chopped liver?
Did he not make the allstar team as well?!

I sad to say that if this is the style of writing that is going to be presented in future by ETB, then i will take my reading somewhere else.

Horrible and biased.

Zack, it’s unfair to say Lakers are the same with or without Kobe due to situational factors. You can’t compare Kobe with a “good” frontcourt vs. Kobe without a “good” frontcourt and conclude that the Lakers are the same with and without Kobe. It’s like saying Boston won about 73% of games without Garnett (including the games he missed at the beginning of the season) yet ended up winning just 76% overall. These numbers show that without Garnett, they are just as good with and without Garnett. Does this mean Boston can afford to lose Garnett?

If you decide to use numbers, use statistics that present contrasting situations. In this case, you should want win % of teams without a good backcourt vs. Lakers’ win % without a good backcourt. This would be the only way to see Kobe’s impact.

Learn to use statistics correctly. Perhaps you need to go back to high school since this is all very basic.

- A fan of reason

1) I’m not a Lakers fan, I’m a Kobe/Lebron/Wade//Billups/Nuggets fan (also, quietly, I’m a huge Steve Francis fan)

2) Zach, 05-06 season: Bynum was still a bench scrub, and Kwame was Just bein’ Kwame. Lakers went 45-35 with Bryant in the lineup. They went 0-2 without him. There’s a winning stat for Kobe my friend. He took what otherwise would have been a lottery team to the playoffs.

3) Zach, you said “A lot of people have all sorts of statistics that seemingly demonstrate that Kobe is great.” Well you seemingly have a lot of stats that demonstrate he is no better than having Jason Richardson or Michael Redd in the backcourt. Stats aren’t the best way to quantify contributions to a team. Here’s another statistic for you: 3 – the number of years now that Kobe has been in the top 5 MVP votegetters. Does that mean jack all? Well, then that must mean that you know better than all the sportswriters and experts out there who consider Bryant to be MVP quality.

4) Here’s some more numbers for you. In that 25-11 stretch, Bynum only averaged 13pts and 10reb. Hardly dominating numbers. Kobe had a lot more to do with it than Bynum; just go back and read the game recaps. Kobe palys on the perimeter: any scoring presence inside the paint makes his job easier.
The 5-5 stretch between Bynum’s injury and the arrival of Gasol included 6 road games, and 5 of the losses were to formidable opponents. They had noone in the frontcourt (Kwame doesn’t count) and went up against the best in the West (SA, DAL, PHX) / best in the east (DET, CLE) and still came away with a 5-5 record.
In the 06-07 season, Kobe led the lakers to 30-21 record (with Kwame, Smush, Lamar,…) before Lamar went out with his shoulder injury and the Lakers had less talent in their lineup than the current Miami Heat. I can’t see how anyone else could have done any better in Kobe’s position. By the way, the Lakers finished with a winning record, 42-40.

5) No credit to Kobe for giving up a lot of the ball when Pau came to town? No credit for instantly gelling with Gasol to go 22-4 to win the Western Conference?

6) Bryant gets wide acclaim from his teammates, as well as other NBA players who call him one of, if not the best player in the world, and you go on and dismiss his contributions from the last few seasons based on win-loss numbers from Bryant’s first 3-4 years in the league when he only just turned 21? Get with the times Zach.

7) Zach, you also said “Why the Lakers were 111-111 with Kobe playing and a not-too-far-off 10-14 without him from 2004-2007?” The Lakers lineup was poor at best. Take Kobe off that team, put Brandon Roy in his place and you wont get much different numbers.

Saying a team can’t win without a dominating big man, is like saying that a car cant run without 4 tyres. Thats how basketball has been for as long as I can remember. Thats why the Heat’s record this season is significantly worse than it was the year they won the title with Shaq. Lebron has Big Z, who isn’t the best big man in the league, but is a very good center to have: Lebron is more than capable to catch (or steal – ala the famous triple double game) the rebounds that Big Z misses with his 6-9 bodybuilder frame.

Zach, you did not respond to any of “anonymous”’s or “Anand”’s comments which pointed out that you weren’t considering all of the facts in some instances.

Enough on this already. Back to the Playoffs.

By the way, your Blazers had a weak showing in their first playoff game. As much as I’d like to see the Rockets get through (just to prove how useless T-mac is), I still think Portland’s depth will get them through the first round.

Red – you should think before you speak. This isn’t a discussion of whether Kobe is the greatest player in the world, its a discussion of whether or not he should be considered an MVP candidate. Since you dont even know what the topic is, it’s fair to say you dont know what your talking about. I should also welcome you to the world of Blazer fans, where there’s plenty of hate for the Lakers these days. Aside from that, in your first post you made a good point – Kobe isn’t as good without a dominant big man. Nor is anyone! But he sure has done a good job while being the league’s media punching bag for years.

@r.i.p.

When I say the best player in the game, I’m basically saying MVP as well. They should be one in the same. Now this hasn’t always happened, but it does in an ideal world. And it will this year.

And apparently you should be the one thinking before you write, because I never said Kobe simply isn’t as good without a dominant center – that much is obvious. I just restated what Zachariah said, which is that Kobe can’t nearly approach the same amount of a success without not a good frontcourt, but a great one.

The league’s punching bag? Please, the media has treated Kobe just fine and actually heaped tons of praise on him, the majority of it deserved. But again, this is just Lakers fans notoriously labeling anyone who doesn’t agree with them Kobe haters.

Interestingly Mr. Blott, you claim to be a fan of the Rockets players who do lots of little things, which I’m assuming includes playing defense and hustling. Yet, you have seemingly no compunctions in comparing the greatest perimeter defender of all time (Pip) with an above average (at best) post player (Odom). See it is this kind of blind cherry-picking stat-based comparison that gives rise to our(everyone except Red) assertion that you have no idea what you’re talking about, sir.

Red – I agree with you on what you said about Kobe not being as productive without a dominant center/frontcourt (my mistake, I thought you said center). All I’m saying is that I’m yet to see a guard that has been.

Apologies for the misunderstanding Red, I’m not labelling you a Kobe hater, I’m labelling Zach (well he pretty much labelled himself) a Kobe hater. I guess the perception I got of Kobe being the media’s “punching bag” could be a result of my reading/viewing selection. Lately Kobe has got very good treatment in the media (except for this article), but in the season before the “Gasol days” it felt like a lot of criticism was directed his way. I guess there’s only one way to stop the hate: to win.

I’m not a Lakers fan. 15 more for Denver. Lebron for 2009MVP. I just hope the same thing doesn’t happen to him as what happened to Dirk back in 07 (receiving the trophy in a 3-1 first round hole against the “Nellie-ballers” – now that was a frown that not even an MVP trophy could turn upside down)

Man, try to stick in one white girl’s ass and everyone holds a grudge… damn.

Zach, have you read any of David Friedman’s writing at “20 Second Timeout”? I advise you to. If you go there and click on Kobe Bryant on the left, you’ll get all his articles on Kobe.

By the way, to say that the Lakers are nearly as good without Kobe 2004-2007 as with them by saying they are 111-111 with him, 10-14 without is crazy, that is nowhere near a good example. The two numbers are SO far apart. If you expand 10-14 to 222 games you get: 93-129, which is quite a bit worse. Not to mention they would have gone worse without him over that amount of time, because in short amount of times even Smush Parker can be amazing, but to rely on him for consistant scoring game after game, no way. You also fail to mention that in the 2004-2005 season they were .500, until Kobe got injured.

Thank you Mr. Blott for actually writing what a lot of people think of Kobe. I hate how commentators are always on Kobe’s nuts. I do believe he is a great scorer, but he’s not the great player that the media makes him out to be. He is always going to try to be like Mike, but he’s not going to get there.

He’s going to retire as one of the top 10 players of all time. Deal with it.