- The Season's Over -

Is Two-Time MVP Steve Nash Overrated?

February 25, 2008

Steve Nash Lays Down

Stephen John Nash, OC, OBC Photo Credit: Icon SMI

It was an ugly performance from the new-look Phoenix Suns on Sunday, a nationally televised 30-point loss and embarrassment that has generated plenty of chatter. The home crowd was booing loudly for much of the second half, something I haven’t seen in US Airways Center for a long while. Mike D’Antoni’s squad was roundly outplayed by Detroit in all facets of the game, but most noticeable was their complete inability to stop the Pistons from scoring at will right from the tip as all five Detroit starters coasted to double-digit points. The acquisition of Shaquille O’Neal sent shockwaves through the basketball community, with most people questioning how adding an overweight, plodding, lazy, past-his-prime center would affect the Suns dynamic offense. Those concerns were all well founded, and in fact floor general Steve Nash has only tallied 8, 5 and 6 assists in the three games since Shaq came over. I still think that’s going to continue to be a problem, but it’s never been their offense I worry about too much. It’s their atrocious defense, which starts at the top.

Opposing teams are averaging 104.2 points per game against the Suns, fifth most in the NBA — only defensive stalwarts Golden State, Indiana, Memphis and Denver allow more points. This season’s numbers are actually an improvement over last season and the year before, when the Suns allowed 110.2 and 108.4 points per, the most in the league both seasons. So why is Steve Nash never called out for being one of the worst defensive point guards in the NBA?

There’s the obvious caveat here: Steve Nash is a great player. He’s unquestionably the catalyst which has transformed Phoenix’s offense into the best and most exciting in the NBA over the last four seasons. In terms of smooth passing skills, court vision, ball-handling and pure shooting Nash is the best player in the league. I’m not taking any of that away from him. The fact remains, however: on the defensive end of the end of the floor Steve Nash is one of the worst liabilities in the league. Nash simply cannot contain penetration; he is routinely beat off the dribble and he struggles to get back on open shooters.

Sunday’s game was a prime example, with Chauncey Billups able to get anywhere on the floor he wanted to at any time. Mr. Big Shot put up a nice line of 14 points, 11 assists and only 2 TOs… in 20:19 minutes! And it’s not like Billups is one of the quicker points in the NBA, he’s a cagey vet with below-average speed and athleticism. The young guns in the West regularly make Nash look even worse. So why does nobody talk about it?

More Steve Nash bashing that’s sure to angry up the blood after the jump…

In February alone Baron Davis has torn him up for 27 points and 13 assists on 12-of-23 shooting, and closed that game out by hitting three straight baskets. A couple nights before that Chris Paul went off for 42 points and 9 assists on 18-for-33 shooting. These are the types of point guards Phoenix will have to go through on their way to the NBA Finals. And those aren’t freak occurrences, opposing points routinely put up their best numbers against Nash and the Suns. According to 82games.com opponent’s point guards average an All Star line of 21 points and 7.4 assists on 49.8% FGs. That’s killing Phoenix night in, night out.

Now, we should also point out that statistics of all varieties are inflated in dealing with the Phoenix Suns. They are consistently among the league leaders in total possessions per game simply because they run so much. But that doesn’t let Nash off the hook for his complete inability to stop anybody, especially in late-game situations. He’s gotten so bad in the final minutes that it seems prudent to sub him out of the game on key defensive possessions. Does that sound like an MVP? Again, he’s a great player, but an MVP to me is a guy with a complete game who does it on both ends of the floor — not a guy who consistently hurts your chances of winning with his play on one end. A player like Chris Paul, LeBron James, Kevin Garnett or Kobe Bryant (who was better than Nash in each of his MVP seasons).

To be fair, the Suns have also been a weak defensive team as a whole. A big part of that has been Amare Stoudemire, a sub-par defender. But this year the Suns have been strong on the wing, with Raja Bell and Shawn Marion playing well all year and even Grant Hill being serviceable. On average this season, the only player in the Suns’ regular rotation to cause a higher opponent’s scoring average per minute is Leandrinho Barbosa.

The Phoenix Suns made the trade for Shaq because they didn’t think they could keep up with low-post teams in the West without a true center. And Steve Kerr may be right, perhaps it’s not possible to win the West without a presence in the paint. But Phoenix currently leads the NBA with 49.2% FGs, and they finished fifth in the NBA last season with 43.8 points in the paint per game. Amare Stoudemire’s 23.7 points per game are the most among all power forwards and centers. The trade for a center wasn’t so much to address scoring inside as it was for defense, which has been the major concern with the team since Nash came to town. Maybe it’s time to question the other end of the key: can they win an NBA title with such porous defense from their point guard?

In a Western Conference playoffs featuring offensively talented points of all ilks, bulls who excel at penetration like Deron Williams, Chris Paul, Tony Parker, Jason Kidd and Baron Davis, I don’t think they can.

Addendum: Some people in the comments below have asked for stats which show a more direct correlation between Nash and defensive inefficiency, so here’s something else to consider: The season before the Nash came to Phoenix in 03-04 the Suns held opposing teams to 97.9 points per. They’ve given up over 102 points per in each season since.

Meanwhile, the Dallas Mavericks gave up 100.8 (second-most in the NBA) in 03-04, Nash’s last season. In the four seasons since his departure they’ve given up only 96.8 per, 93.1 per, 92.8 and 95.1 per while climbing into the NBA’s top ten in defensive efficiency. They also made it to the NBA Finals in 2006, something they never did before Nash left as a free agent. The Suns haven’t made it there with Nash either.

Get Direct TV Phoenix AZ to follow all the Suns action.

Tags: Steve Nash, NBA MVP, Phoenix Suns

296 Comments »Posted by Andrew Thell on Feb. 25, 2008 at 11:06 pm in NBA, NBA Fantasy News

296 Responses

I wonder if the better fit for what the Suns were looking for might have been Jermaine O’Neal or Ben Wallace?

Posted by: Shinons on February 26th, 2008 at 8:59 am

Steve Nash is a two time MVP

Posted by: Jack on February 26th, 2008 at 9:12 am

I am right there with you on this one, Mr. Thell. I’ve been calling Nash overrated for years. You’re dead on about his defense, and what most people don’t mention is that the Nash-led Mavs were very similar to his Suns: a potent, smooth-passing offense with a weak defense that could never make it to the Finals.

As you said, he’s an excellent player, but I guess I just don’t see what his MVP voters see.

Posted by: Jeremy on February 26th, 2008 at 12:20 pm

I think the fact that Nash won back-to-back MVPs is exactly why he is overrated. For a guy to do that, IMO, he should not be such a defensive liability (as the author points out), and at the very least he should have at least made one Finals appearance. When you look at the incredible amount of hugely talented players Nash has been surrounded with for the last 8-10 years or so, the fact that he’s never been able to take any of those teams to the Finals is a huge, huge argument against how good he really is.

He was teamed with Dirk, Antawn Jamison, Josh Howard, Antoine Walker, Nick Van Exel and hardly won any playoff games at all with that team. Then with all the guys he’s been paired with in Phoenix he still has yet to even reach the Finals. His leaving Dallas as a free agent and them suddenly going to the Finals afterwards doesn’t help his credibility either.

He’s obviously a great player, no doubt, but I have to feel that a guy who is supposed to be so legendary for making his teammates better, wouldn’t a player like that be winning championships if you surrounded him with guys who are already All Star talents? After all, if you can’t raise the game of All Star teammates to a championship level, how much better are you really making them?

Posted by: WildYams on February 26th, 2008 at 12:53 pm

There’s no way you can call him overrated. People are so quick to jump one way or the other, they forget there’s a middle ground. This article is a perfect example of even reporting. Nash has done incredible things for this team offensively, and basically made the franchise a crapload of money, which in the real world, is what’s it’s really all about. This alone makes up for his defensive shortcomings to the owners. To me, since he’s been there awhile, his teammates should understand his defensive liabilities and be ready to help at any time. I completely agree he gets worked by other gaurds, but when you’re talking about gaurds like Chauncey and Baron, ther’re both very physical gaurds who can post up Nash, and there’s not a thing he can do about it. Chris Paul is just too quick for him. Again, this is not to defend Nash and say he’s a good defensive player, it’s just that his team should have adapted to his weaknesses by now, that’s what great teams do.
My bigger dissapointment comes from Stoudemire who, since learning he’ll be moving back to the 4, has decided that has freed him from ALL responsibilities beyond scoring. UH, DUDE, you still have to rebound and defend, you know that right?

Posted by: Sky on February 26th, 2008 at 1:26 pm

steve nash is cold in basketball and there is nothing wrong with him. he is perfectly fine. he’s just stressed from the games and needs to just sit down and relax. then he’ll be just fine. trust me. that’s what i do when i’m stressed about a basketball game. i relax and then the skills just come to me. let him rest for a while.

Posted by: Chasidy Gobert on February 26th, 2008 at 1:38 pm

Isn’t this basically just a rehash of the same arguments against Nash that have been circulating ever since he won his first MVP? Sure, the numbers of opposing PGs have been updated, but again, the whole “Chauncey Billups lit Steve argument” was used against Nash in his second MVP run. MVPs can’t be defensive liabilities? Is Dirk a stopper? How about A.I., whose only defensive ability is to float around in the passing lanes and gamble for steals. Magic Johnson was a poor defender too…remember when Sleepy Floyd used to light him up, including 51 points in a playoff game? Same with Bird, who consistently took guys like John Koncak and Bill Laimbeer instead of opposing SFs. Remember Bob McAdoo’s MVP? MVP doesn’t mean “perfect in every aspect of the game.”

Nash and the Suns have their share of defensive problems, yes. Will it kill them in the playoffs? We’ll see.

Posted by: basketbawful on February 26th, 2008 at 2:30 pm

Michael Jordan was totally overrated when he was with the Wizards. Greatest basketball player ever? As if!

Posted by: The_Overdog on February 26th, 2008 at 2:35 pm

steve nash looks like ken waller in that photo

Posted by: Phil Anselmo on February 26th, 2008 at 2:38 pm

I felt kinda bad for that guy in “Pumping Iron.”

Posted by: Brian Spencer on February 26th, 2008 at 2:41 pm

Fun fact to know and tell:

Mavs D during 6 years with Nash: 97.4 ppg
Since: 94.4, in an era when scoring has been steadily rising.

Posted by: gjdodger on February 26th, 2008 at 2:50 pm

Hey basketbawful-

If this were an article about how he might not deserve the MVPs, we’ve seen that before. Aside from all of that, I’m saying Steve Nash is overrated even when he’s not in the MVP race (as he shouldn’t be considered one of the top five candidates for the award this season).

The main point we come to here, which I’m not sure I’ve seen anywhere before, is that the Phoenix Suns CAN’T win an NBA title BECAUSE of Steve Nash.

Posted by: Andrew Thell on February 26th, 2008 at 2:59 pm

The NBA is not a individual defensive game. That’s not how it works. Baron Davis is going to get his points no matter who is guarding him when he is has it going. So my question to y’all is who is the best defensive point guard in the game now? And to say Kobe was better than Nash in both of Nash’s MVP years is a tad ludicrous considering the Lakers were so bad then. Basketball is a team game. This subject is trite.

Posted by: dan d on February 26th, 2008 at 3:04 pm

“steve nash is cold in basketball and there is nothing wrong with him. he is perfectly fine. he’s just stressed from the games and needs to just sit down and relax. then he’ll be just fine. trust me. that’s what i do when i’m stressed about a basketball game. i relax and then the skills just come to me. let him rest for a while.

Posted by: Chasidy Gobert”

You’re not in the NBA. Nash’s expectations are a tad higher than people’s basketball expectations of you. And relax? They’re in the Western Conference: every game is important. No time to relax.

His teammates need to pick up his slack on D, or they’re not going anywhere this year: period.

Posted by: Kevin on February 26th, 2008 at 3:05 pm

Andrew Thell smokes pole.

Posted by: god on February 26th, 2008 at 3:08 pm

Nash is a very unique player in several respects:

*that rare 2-time mvp who hasn’t sniffed a final

*that rare 2-time mvp with all-star caliber players at multiple position who gets all the credit for their performances

*that rare 2-time mvp who yields career scoring nights to steve blake (you didn’t even have to use the baron davis example. take a look at how many bums have set career highs against nash)

*that rare 2-time mvp who gets all the credit for teammates’ success yet very little if any blame for their failure to ever progress out of the west.

*can you imagine if ANY other big name has Marion, Amare, and Barbosa on his team and got taken 7 games by the Lakers 2 years back? If LeBron or Kobe couldn’t make the fnals with that lineup, what’s the over/under on how many columnists would be salivating to pen poison pieces about them? Yet when Nash fails, hardly a peep. In fact, Marc Stein at espn actually wrote glowingly of Nash after playoff LOSSES on multiple occasions! Uncanny.

*Nash isn’t even the best pg in Suns history (KJ was better, with less talent around him until Barkley arrived, at which point KJ was approaching the downside of his career).

Posted by: obvi on February 26th, 2008 at 3:30 pm

The main point we come to here, which I’m not sure I’ve seen anywhere before, is that the Phoenix Suns CAN’T win an NBA title BECAUSE of Steve Nash.

Well, I’ve been writing that for years, so I agree with ya’ll. Or rather, I think the Suns have to do more to shore up their defense, if you are going to play with a defensive liabilities like Nash (and Amare)… you need guys like Bell on the perimeter, and you need a legit force in the paint. That’s why I liked the idea behind the Shaq trade – move Amare out of the paint; that’s a good step. Shaq, though, may not be the proper answer. Really you need a young Ben Wallace or a young Mutumbo.

Oh, and a huge +1 to obvi’s comment, for laying out the “Nash should not be MVP” argument nicely.

Posted by: stopmikelupica on February 26th, 2008 at 3:41 pm

Excellent article. People may agree or disagree, but you raise some worthwhile points and allow people to take a side pro or con. That is good work.

Personal take — Nash is so far ahead of the curve offensively (18-11-4, while shooting 51% overall and44% from 3) that even poor defense at the PG spot diminishes him only slightly. I mean, who are your good PG defenders? Not a long list.

I will say that the one thing that always struck me as odd is that people vote for Nash for MVP and then vote for Amare and Marion as first-team all-NBA. Um, they have THREE of the best 5 guys in the league!?!? Are they 80 and 2 on the year?

Posted by: hm on February 26th, 2008 at 4:03 pm

Steve Nash is White.

Posted by: Harold Reemus on February 26th, 2008 at 4:17 pm

What would you say about a former MVP that averaged only 15 points and 4 assists per game? Would you say that player wasn’t good enough to win MVP?

What if I told you that player was Bill Russell?

Posted by: rwmonty on February 26th, 2008 at 4:52 pm

Somebody get this rwmonty guy out of here, he’s creepin me out.

Posted by: Andrew Thell on February 26th, 2008 at 5:14 pm

Over rated? Are you kiding me?

Posted by: clayton on February 26th, 2008 at 6:01 pm

This is the most ridiculus thing I’ve ever heard. Steve Nash deserves an MVP for every season he’s played for the Suns. He is extremely versatile and can make a shot from anywhere on the floor. Just because he isn’t quite as good as he is because getting older (a natural thing in an NBA career), does not mean that he is over rated. He still as good, if not better than players in their prime.

And I believe that it is spelled Leandro Barbosa

Posted by: Sydney on February 26th, 2008 at 6:06 pm

nash has always been a defensive liability, but thats no new information, by the way i doubt there are many pgs in the league who pick up more charges per game than nash, or know how to play better team D. Nash is the most unathletic and weakest players in the league, his small body can’t bang with the bigger guards, and his slow feet keep him from staying with the quicks. What’s amazing is how he still runs an offense as well as he does.

Posted by: kevin quirk on February 26th, 2008 at 6:11 pm

On most nights, the all-star point guards were usually guarded by Marion or Bell. You look at those statistics that PG average against PHX…and you blame it on Nash. That is so inaccurate since Nash doesn’t always cover the PG during games. The team is overall to blame, if they don’t win it this year. Sure you can let a player score 50 points…but the chances a player leading the team in points will win a series in the play offs? Look at the Lakers, the past two playoffs against the Suns. Sure Nash has bad defense but he makes it up with his offense.

Posted by: Someone on February 26th, 2008 at 6:31 pm

Leandrinho, which means “Little Leandro,” is an old nickname from Barbosa’s days in Brazil.

And as I said above:

“There’s the obvious caveat here: Steve Nash is a great player. He’s unquestionably the catalyst which has transformed Phoenix’s offense into the best and most exciting in the NBA over the last four seasons. In terms of smooth passing skills, court vision, ball-handling and pure shooting Nash is the best player in the league.”

Posted by: Andrew Thell on February 26th, 2008 at 6:34 pm

Wow. This article is amazingly uninformed/stupid. Check out your stats, buddy. Have the Suns ever played better defense with Steve Nash off the floor? The answer is: No. Consider your argument total and complete poop.

Posted by: Vlad S on February 26th, 2008 at 6:42 pm

Hold up steve nash is cold hes the best point gaurd since Magic.Hes got the wettest shot in the NBA GET OFF HIS BACK.

Posted by: JOSE BRICIO on February 26th, 2008 at 6:44 pm

It’s debatable whether he should’ve won..but the fact is..the suns won all those regular season games when he was MVP, and Nash was the catalyst in all this. The individual game’s where Nash didn’t play great D is so flawed..every PG will get lite up…Personally, I think the article is alot of bias…it doesn’t seem to convince me and I was never a suns fan..Those arguments are just not remotely good enough to counter the great skill and things Nash has done.

Posted by: Basketball on February 26th, 2008 at 6:52 pm

The season before the Nash came to Phoenix in 03-04 the Suns held opposing teams to 97.9 points per. They’ve given up over 102 points per in each season since.

Meanwhile, the Dallas Mavericks gave up 100.8 (second-most in the NBA) in 03-04, Nash’s last season. In the four seasons since his departure they’ve given up only 96.8 per, 93.1 per, 92.8 and 95.1 per while climbing into the NBA’s top ten in defensive efficiency. They also made it to the NBA Finals in 2006, something they never did before Nash left as a free agent. And the Suns haven’t made it there with Nash either. In the playoffs you can’t just run and gun, the games slow down to half-court basketball and making defensive stops becomes critical. With Nash on the floor that’s hard to do.

Posted by: Andrew Thell on February 26th, 2008 at 6:58 pm

Steve Nash overrated??? are you kidding me??? Two time MVP not deserved? hmmm.. He deserved last year’s too.
He might not be a better defensive player, but he has so many high points in his game that defense doesn’t show at all.

and for anyone who’s arguing about Steve Nash is already playing with all-star caliber players… before Steve Nash got into Phoenix, I remember Stephan Marbury was there and he had the same “Shawn Marion + Amare” combo + Joe Johnson, and from what I remember they had the WORST record in the west that year!!! next year Steve Nash came in and a 40 game-wins turnaround!!!
Steve Nash overrated??? are you kidding me???

Posted by: shora on February 26th, 2008 at 6:59 pm

How many NBA titles are won in the regular season?

Posted by: Andrew Thell on February 26th, 2008 at 7:01 pm

There is no way Nash should have won back to back MVPs. Kobe averaged 35 a game and scored 81 against Toronto. His defense is weak and come on people, I’m tired of hearing how he is the best offensive point guard, I mean let me have Amare our Marion, Barbosa, Diaw to pass to. Or let me put it like this, Nash in Dallas great offense but no finals, Nash on the Suns great offense no finals, and and and…didnt Dallas go to the finals without Nash…MVPs are the best PLAYERS, not the best offensive players. Kidd to me is still better, no he cant shoot, but he passes, rebounds and plays D

Posted by: kris on February 26th, 2008 at 7:03 pm

Since when can one player win the game, Steve Nash is the best point guard in the league right now. Nash is an mvp because he makes everyone around him much better. Have u ever sit down and seen how the suns play without him in the floor. He will shock the sceptics out there when we sweep the lakers and win the championship

Posted by: jorge on February 26th, 2008 at 7:08 pm

It’ll be interesting to see whether people finally start to give Shawn Marion the props he’s due now that he’s left and the Suns have started to decline.

On a different note, how can anyone say that Steve Nash is overrated? Yes, his defence isn’t as strong as Kobe or Raja or probably a dozen guards in the league, but look at his scoring and assist numbers people!!!! We’re talking about Chris Paul being an MVP contender for playing basically the same game as Nash, yet Paul is still behind in his assist averages. Steve Nash is not the most athletic guy in the league and yet he’s been able to elevate and develop people like Amare and Shawn to All-Star status. How many people has Kobe helped to develop? Steve Nash overrated? People are kidding themselves.

Posted by: Dan on February 26th, 2008 at 7:17 pm

The “did he deserve those MVPs” argument is certainly touched on — briefly — but I think the main crux of Andrew’s well-thought out editorial is whether or not Nash’s well-known defensive liabilities are going to play a big part in holding the Suns back from winning a title. (If they somehow make it to the NBA Finals this season, and face the Detroit Pistons, I say “yes.”)

And I think it’s also important to note, as Andrew has a few times, that this editorial does not in any way demean his prolific *offensive* talents, efficiency, and leadership.

Posted by: Brian Spencer on February 26th, 2008 at 7:21 pm

This is basically a rip on Steve Nash comment fest, give the dude props for being the greatest passer of all time, for being one of the most pure PG shots playing today and for turning the Suns from a slightly about average team to one of the Contenders year after year…

His offensive power makes his defense irrelevant quite frankly…

Both coaches and players alike all recognise that he is still one of the best point guard to play the game…

And plus the guy is 34, how many 34 year old point guards would walk into the starting role on ANY team in the L (Only 1… Jason Kidd)

Quash the beef and let they guy ball…

Posted by: P David on February 26th, 2008 at 7:21 pm

I guess this all comes down to what an MVP means.

For me, it is being “the man” in your team. Being the leader and an unquestionable threat on the floor. Nash was like that for the Suns during his first year, when he transformed the team into the offensive machine it has been for a while now.

And remember, the MVP is for the best player for the REGULAR SEASON not the playoffs.

Steve Nash was like that during the first year, but I really don’t think he deserved it the second time around. There were just much better players during the following season

Posted by: EEE on February 26th, 2008 at 7:23 pm

People have forgotten the seasons that Steve Nash won the MVP. The Suns consistently beat Kobe and the Lakers, including in the playoffs. The Cavaliers weren’t the team they are now. Dwight Howard and Chris Paul were still developing.

When Steve Nash was out for any length of time the Suns tanked. The Spurs have beat the Suns (with the help of a stupid league ruling to take out the Suns best players when the tide of the playoffs was turning), but they are an all-around excellent team.

I think Kobe is the MVP this year, but two years ago? No way.

Posted by: bill braskie on February 26th, 2008 at 7:23 pm

Who does Andrew Thell think he is? He is about to say that the Phoenix Suns can’t win an NBA Championship without Steve Nash? Nash is the leader of their team, without him, they would not be one of the top contenders in the west. He deserved to win his to back to back MVP awards. Just look at the Suns’ records before he came back to Phoenix. The 2003-2004 season, Phoenix had a 29-53 record. The next year, which was Nash’s return, they had the league best and franchise tying record of 62-20. All because of Steve Nash. In the 05-06 season, their record was 54-28 because of the absence of Amare Stoudemire. The next season, 06-07, they had the second best record in the NBA with 61 wins and 21 losses. And this year, they are still right up there with the top elite teams in the west. Anyone to call Steve Nash overrated and not deserving his two MVP honors clearly does not know what they are talking about.

Posted by: sunsfan on February 26th, 2008 at 7:24 pm

Just to restate the issue here: it is NOT whether or not Steve Nash deserved the MVPs in past seasons. It is whether or not Steve Nash is overrated, and whether or not his terrible defense has held his teams back from postseason success.

Posted by: Andrew Thell on February 26th, 2008 at 7:25 pm

steve nash overrated??? I don’t think so, I think he deserved MVP coz phoenix without him(whenever he injured) was like a ship without a captain. They Sink!!!!!!!!!

Posted by: mike on February 26th, 2008 at 7:28 pm

Steve Nash can have an impact on the defensive end, he has always been great at drawing charges. He is not a horrible defensive player, just average. Chris Paul is excellent of course, but there are not many good defensive guards. Nash just concentrates more on the offensive end, considering that is the Suns offense. When you say that the Suns can’t win a championship with Nash, I really don’t think they have a shot without him. You forget that their record went from one of the worst to the best. It wasn’t Amare or Marion, it was Nash. I think Amare is the biggest disappointment because he is a liability on the defensive end, otherwise the Suns would not have gotten Shaq. Rasheed Wallace pretty much owned Amare on Sunday. If he could improve his D as much as shot, then the Suns will have much better chances. If Nash shouldn’t have to worry so much about penetration if there is an Amare Stoudemire in the paint. Amare’s D with Nash’s great offense is the key to a championship.

Posted by: heyheyhey on February 26th, 2008 at 7:28 pm

“Does that sound like an MVP? Again, he’s a great player, but an MVP to me is a guy with a complete game who does it on both ends of the floor — not a guy who consistently hurts your chances of winning with his play on one end. A player like Chris Paul, LeBron James, Kevin Garnett or Kobe Bryant (who was better than Nash in each of his MVP seasons).”

Sorry Andrew, the part where you wrote how Steve Nash doesn’t “sound like an MVP” confused me. It made me think you were writing about Steve Nash not deserving to be the MVP.

Posted by: bill braskie on February 26th, 2008 at 7:34 pm

steve nash is not overrated. he is a two-time mvp for a reason. being an mvp is not about being a complete player. if that was the case bryant or lebron should have gotten it before nash. but that didn’t happen, right? mvp is about a guy leading the team to a win. a guy who can control and lead the franchise and at the same time, the team will struggle without him. steve nash was that man for the suns.

Posted by: nikko13 on February 26th, 2008 at 7:34 pm

dude mvps are voted on by sportswriters, so he can be a two time mvp and overrated. the reason he is an mvp is becuase he is overrated. I think he should have won the first, but Kobe Bryant was the clear choice in his second year. If u recall, that was the year Kobe lit up the league averaging 35.4 ppg, while taking a team that started Kwame Brown, Smush Parker, AND luke walton to 45 wins out west. The man broke records, had 81 in one game, and outscored the mavs 62-61 in the three quarters he played that game. If thats not an mvp, i dont no what it

Posted by: BIGO on February 26th, 2008 at 7:48 pm

how can you be an MVP when no one respects your D?

Posted by: m on February 26th, 2008 at 7:49 pm

The Suns look worse and worse every game with this Shaq trade. You can’t change a run and gun offense to a half court style and expect success in one third of a season. What if the Suns don’t do well for the remainder of the season and end up a low playoff seed. If they’re knocked out quickly even if they stretch it to seven games, will people start to give Shawn Marion more credit to how valuable he was for those teams? Steve Nash definitely has had more than ample support his whole career. Something that Kobe has lacked for the last few seasons until this point. Phoenix will see more of the same in the playoffs from the Lakers that they saw in that game last week. We can play any style of basketball they choose to now with our revamped offense. Basically, we once again have the Suns number and their short run at the top of the Pacific is over.

Posted by: Lakersontop13 on February 26th, 2008 at 7:49 pm

There’s a few points I’d like to make.

1)Those of you that say his offense makes up for his D is wrong. Last I checked, all teams since the Spurs in 02-03 season have won championships from D. And all those teams had better defensive PG’s than Nash.

2)The arguement that other PGs don’t play D is pointless. At least some of them make up for it by STEALING the ball.

3)Whoever said Nash deserved it all these years is wrong. His 1st was pretty much legit, but since then others deserved it more(Kobe and Lebron). Even without Nash, the Suns would still be a playoff team(Not as good though), while the Cavs and Lakers wouldn’t be in the playoffs if it wasn’t for Kobe and Lebron.

I’m not saying Nash is a bad player. If I want an offensive PG for my team, I’d take Nash. But he is still over-rated.

Posted by: Mike McKenzie on February 26th, 2008 at 7:52 pm

an article from a pro-Bryant-sh*t guy…

tsk tsk tsk…

pure bias… your an a-hole…

Posted by: GhiaElcid on February 26th, 2008 at 7:58 pm

I felt like you read my mind and wrote this article.

I also agree with giving the award to a player on a good team but I don’t think it should be limited to a top 1 or 2 team, a playoff team atleast but looking at the team with the best record and having to pick the MVP from that roster while you’ve got guys like Kobe and LeBron ripping up the league with no help on their team is just unfair. (I’m speaking about last season by the way, I know they have help this season)

And as dirk and LeBron showed us last season, leading your team to the most wins doesn’t mean leading your team to the finals.

Posted by: tom on February 26th, 2008 at 8:03 pm

Steve Nash is a two-time MVP.. Period. That’s why he was chosen to be the MVP and won back-to-back is because he makes bsketball very easy on his team. He makes his teammates very good and at that time they had the best record. That’s an MVP. and Phoenix is not a defensive team, they are an offensive team, so what will you expect?

Posted by: Jasey Rae on February 26th, 2008 at 8:04 pm

Ok, I’ll bite: Kobe is a seven-time selection to the NBA’s All Defensive team. And, with the exception of 05-06 (4.5 assists) when he had nobody to pass to, Kobe also has averaged at least 5.0 assists for each of the last nine years. No other SGs or SFs have racked up so many dimes. So, we’re talking about stellar offense, multiple titles, incredible clutch performances, great playoff track record, incredible prolonged distribution, the best perimeter defender in the NBA over the last decade (nuts to Bruce bowen, he’s a hack), a guy who can score 81 points in a game, and the best closer in the NBA (except for perhaps that new kid, Le-something) … I’m just not seeing the holes in his game. Nash is great. Kobe is better.

Posted by: Andrew Thell on February 26th, 2008 at 8:05 pm

In reply to Andrew Thell – “How many NBA titles are won in the regular season?”
The MVP award is based solely on the regular season which shows the Suns as having the best record over the past 3 season. I agree MVPs should take their teams to the finals (although their have been some fantastic players not get there), but MVPs are all about making their teammates better. Do you think Stoudamire or Marion would be better players playing with Iverson (or to a lesser extent Baron Davis)? I think not. Both would be having lesser numbers (and most likely requested a trade to a team that would be able to make them “the man”.

Posted by: Thommo on February 26th, 2008 at 8:05 pm

None, thats why he won the REGULAR SEASON MVP, not the FINALS MVP. As pointed out above, He led the suns to the best record in the NBA (correct me if im wrong) coming off a very bad season. His next season with them he still led the team to one of the top records in the league, without amare, and he even helped boris diaw win his MIP award. That being said, I believe he deserved to be the MVP on both those occasions, because of the fact that he was the most valuable player in their team and using this as my argument, I definitely believe that Steve Nash is NOT overrated.

Posted by: lakerboy on February 26th, 2008 at 8:11 pm

First I think youhave a point in saying that Nash has problems containing other point guards, but I think he still is a worthy MVP, he is the reason the Phoenix suns went from nobody to the best show in sneakers, he is the engine of that transformation. Seriously you have to admit they have been the most fun team to watch in the last few years.
Also the argument that the mavs have improved their defense is hard to correlate with Nash, he couold be part of the reason but also, very important in their defensive improvement is Avery Johnson as a coach… remember he was in San Antonio and he always talked about improving the D.
As for the suns steve always risks his body taking charges on D and also he has a mental toughnes that you surely would want in the clutch… remeber the doble OT classis vs the mavs last season, anyone? So part of the defensive problems of the suns are the lack of understanding in the rotations and the lack of boxing out poeple not allowing second chance points and that is a team effort not a one man thing.
Anyway he IS a 2 time MVP and you can argue what you want but he’s got the tropies.

Posted by: Alvaro Diaz on February 26th, 2008 at 8:17 pm

**None, thats why he won the REGULAR SEASON MVP, not the FINALS MVP. As pointed out above, He led the suns to the best record in the NBA (correct me if im wrong) coming off a very bad season. His next season with them he still led the team to one of the top records in the league, without amare, and he even helped boris diaw win his MIP award. That being said, I believe he deserved to be the MVP on both those occasions, because of the fact that he was the most valuable player in their team and using this as my argument, I definitely believe that Steve Nash is NOT overrated.

Posted by: lakerboy on February 26th, 2008 at 8:11 pm **

well said…

Posted by: GhiaElcid on February 26th, 2008 at 8:19 pm

Um, Kobe better then Nash in both Nash’s MVP seasons? I am sorry, but which player’s team didn’t even make it into the playoffs in 2004-2005? (Hint, it wasn’t Phoenix!!) Also, which team won the series between Phoenix and L.A. in the playoffs and made it to the conference finals to lose by 6? (Hint, it wasn’t L.A.!!). One last thing: Baskedball is a TEAM game. Meaning even if one player scores 81 points in a game, amazing as that is, it doesn’t change the fact that his team finished only 2 games above 500 and 7th in their conference.

Conclusion: Kobe Bryant cannot be considered ranked above Steve Nash for the MVP award in both 04-05 and 05-06. No way, no how.

Posted by: PJ on February 26th, 2008 at 8:22 pm

This guy is smoking some cheap weed!!!

Posted by: Brian on February 26th, 2008 at 8:29 pm

give Nash his due…

this year, i won’t be having any problem if Kobe/Lebron/Garnett (Kobe leading) will be the MVP because their individual and team stat/performance shows it… either of the three will win the MVP this year…

but saying Nash is overrated and that Kobe is better in Nash’ MVP year… either your blind, your a moron/stupid (like Kerr), or your just playing silly…

Nash deserves his MVP, Dirk deserves his MVP…

and You don’t have the right to discredit them…

Posted by: GhiaElcid on February 26th, 2008 at 8:30 pm

Clearly you don’t know what you’re writing about.
The last three baskets scored by B-Diddy were scored on Grant Hill, not Nash. When the best player of another team gets hot, what can you do?
So who is to blame when Kobe dropped 81 on the Raptors?
Kobe didn’t win MVP because his team barely made the playoffs.
Why don’t you give the mvp to Ricky Davis back in the cavs, or Jerry Stackhouse when he led the league in scoring?

Posted by: madair on February 26th, 2008 at 8:34 pm

How are team stats such as ppg against relevant?

Of course teams will score less ppg against Dallas now – they don’t run as much – and Nash isn’t the only personnel change on that team.

Lots of All-Star teammates? Seen them try and score with Nash off the floor? Billups has had all-star team mates in Hamilton, and the Wallaces’.

It is obvious he is not the most individually talented but another measure of MVP is how good is the team without him and Phoenix would suck – remember Marbury and the Suns. How many games did the Suns improve in Nash’s first year? Nash would have one of the highest +/- numbers in the league for time on court.

Call him over rated if you want – but if I had a choice to watch any team in the league, I’m picking a Nash led Phoenix.

Posted by: Mark on February 26th, 2008 at 8:40 pm

Nash and the Suns were the #2 seed in 2006 versus the #7 seed Lakers. Kobe and the Lakers had them down 3-1, but choked away the series due to Smush Parker and Kwame Brown (and finally Odom and everybody else in Game 7). In his MVP season they should have lost in the first round to a much inferior Lakers team. I KNOW the MVP is based on the regular season, but that is precisely the point of the article – a plethora of regular season wins by Nash and the Suns, and two or three or any number of MVP’s does NOT mean he is not overrated (just like Dirk and the Mavs are overrated) unless he can win DEEP IN THE PLAYOFFS.

Posted by: gurf morlix on February 26th, 2008 at 8:46 pm

if MVP’s are based on the players performance on both ends of the court, then sports writers should be considering BRUCE BOWEN as well don’t you think? i mean, the guy can shoot (especially on corners), oh and yeah, one of the toughest defenders in the league.

but nash overrated? i don’t think so.

Posted by: Donny Don on February 26th, 2008 at 8:50 pm

it’s entirely possible that the higher allowed opposing-team points per game occuring whenever nash is present in a team is due to the fact that he increases the overall pace of the game, which allows his opponents to score more (at the same time allowing his teams to score more).

Posted by: anonymous on February 26th, 2008 at 8:51 pm

from Andrew Thell’s post “Nash is great. Kobe is better.”

i totally agree that kobe is better, hell, he’s even the best player in the league. but nash, nash is the MVP.

Posted by: wbsssh on February 26th, 2008 at 9:07 pm

Nash may not be a great defender but flashing stats for the other teams star point guards is very misleading. Against many of the teams you listed Nash does not guard the opposing teams point guard. Before the trade it was often Marion, and recently has been Raja Bell or even Grant Hill.

Posted by: Tim on February 26th, 2008 at 9:11 pm

…WildYams…your stupid…you keep talking about the fact that nash won 2 mvps and thats why hes overrated cuz his team has never made it to the finals…well i dno how much basketball u rly watch, but MVP has nothing to do with playoff stats or final stats…its a regular season award

“After all, if you can’t raise the game of All Star teammates to a championship level, how much better are you really making them?”

are you serious?
the first season nash was named MVP…every other PHX started had career highs in alot of categories…and EVERYONE knows that PHX got robbed in the playoffs the second year nash won mvp by the amare stoudemire suspension and if that stupid rule that u can get off your bench (even to helpa teammate) or else u get suspended wasnt there, PHX would have won that series against SA

and the fact that dallas made the finals without nash? i guess u could have an argument there..but know that nash left dallas in 04…and they made the finals appearence in 06…so thats 2 years…and the only reason dallas did better without him is cuz it opened it up for nowitzki to do what ever he wanted…not cuz nash brought them down

Posted by: haseeb on February 26th, 2008 at 9:13 pm

Listen, to all of you who are wondering “How can Steve Nash be MVP when doesn’t get into the finals every year?” or are wondering “When are people going to stop acknowledging Steve Nash for his offense when his teammates deserve that credit?” Or the most ridiculous of all of these comments I’ve read up above, “The MVP is the best player in the league! Steve Nash is not better than Kobe Bryant!” Listen. The MVP is not the best player in the league, it’s the most valuable during the SEASON. Not the Playoffs, not the best player to play the game, the most valuable during that single year. The difference is that Steve Nash stays healthy almost every single year even though he has a weak body, and that when his team is forced to play without them their offense and even their defense looks even more atrocious then usual. Don’t get me wrong, Steve Nash’s defense is horrible, and I’m a huge Nash fan, but you can’t knock him and say people like Jason Kidd who can’t even score the basketball as a guard are better. Great teams have centers and power forwards, they don’t need point guards that can rebound; they need ones who can lead a good offense, score, and help their teammates make buckets [assists]. Name a team that as of late that has won a championship without a wonderful Center or Forward. If you think Jason Kidd would have all of those triple doubles on a real team like San Antonio who has bigs, you’re sadly mistaken.

Even if you don’t want to admit it, I will point out all of Steve Nash’s good points and what he does every night. He has the best shot in the league when it comes to point guards and the highest percentage, he runs the smoothest offense in the NBA [which I suppose can be chalked up to his teammates too], there isn’t a player [today] more clutch or calm in game winning situations as Steve Nash, in one of his worst scoring nights where he went 0-4 at the start of a game last season, he completely stopped shooting and gave his teammates a franchise, season high, and highest that year of 21 assists against the Cavs [who Spurs coach Gregg Popovich admitted had the most underrated defense in the league, and are one of the best in tight situations], and a meager 4 points, meaning that when Nash can’t get hot from the court that he can focus only on court vision and light you up significantly on his worst night. Yes, he put up like 8 and 5 since Shaq came around, but have you forgotten that most of Steve Nash’s assists came from the Stoudemire pick and roll and Shawn Marion? Can you at least wait until the team adjusts to losing one of the most consistent and underrated players in history [Shawn Marion], or until Shaq gets in shape enough to run the pick and roll with Nash? I guess not, huh?

Should Kobe have won the MVP either year that Nash won it? Maybe, but it’s very arguable when you look at what Kobe does for his club day in and day out, however you have to look at the fact that the NBA really hates giving the MVP to players on horrible teams too, and if you ask any coach what he thinks a good player does for a team, he won’t tell you score, he’s going to tell you he makes everyone on his team better every night which Kobe can’t do anywhere near an excellent point guard can period.

On another subject, Kobe Bryant is the best player in the game currently, but every year that he’s won a championship, he’s had huge help. Did Kobe and Shaq win the championship the first year they got together? No, I think it took as many as five for even the dynamic duo to get a championship, so don’t make it sound like Nash has had all the time in the world to win one, and just tune in to see if he lives up to the hype.

Posted by: LethaL BoSS on February 26th, 2008 at 9:18 pm

Why isn’t Nash guarding the opposing team’s point guard? Isn’t the fact that he’s incapable of doing so, that he has to be hidden on defense, an indictment in and of itself?

Posted by: Andrew Thell on February 26th, 2008 at 9:19 pm

Nash is definately not overated. His MVP’s were not based on his great offensive skill or poor defensive skill but his ability to make his teammates better. Scrubs like raja bell and leandro barbosa put up double figures and can start on nash’s squad but thew would be weak players on other teams. He creates for the suns. A phoenix team with marion, bell, stoudemire,and barbosa played with another point gaurd called starbury and didn’t do shit.

Posted by: Ian on February 26th, 2008 at 9:25 pm

It’s too bad there’s no position like the designated hitter in basketball, that would suit Steve perfectly. But there’s not. You have to play defense in basketball, and Nash is the only MVP I can think of to be such a horrible liability in 50% of the game.

Imagine if Phil Jackson had to hide MJ on defense, or if Hakeem Olajuwon was unable of guarding David Robinson and Patrick Ewing. To make more of an apples-to-apples comparison, look at John Stockton. Stockton was as great offensively as Nash (if not better), yet was guarding guys like Jordan, Reggie Miller, Magic and so on. Oh, and Stockton was two, three inches shorter than Nash.

Posted by: Kyle on February 26th, 2008 at 9:33 pm

numbers expire with age… Steve Nash is proving that wrong. He is still producing at his past MVP performances along wit hhigh percentages.

and since when has a guard ever had the expectations on the defensive end of the floor. Now i have nothing against that, if your gaurds can play some stellar D than hats off (Baron Davis: specifically his work in defending former MVP Dirk in the playoffs last year, nothin more need be said). Now a point gaurd, in specific, his job is to bring the ball down the court, and pass the ball that will or eventually lead to a bucket. Nash does his job. This league is a Forward league, the suns forwards are not doing there job, which is to defend. Amare can score, we can all see that, but his defense has been a liability, why is this conversation of the Suns D concentrated towards Nash when that is not HIS responsibility. It is the teams responsibility. And with Diesel in the big picture, it has already been shown that they are a better defensize squad. But none of this can really be proven untill the playoffs, who cares about the regular season… The Suns have failed as a defensive formation as a team, you can’t put the blame on the pg

I am a Suns fan, not my favourite team, but they are fun to watch, jsut not in the playoff’s. The regular season is all about scoring, the playoffs are about defense, which is boring to wathc most of the time, but if you are a true fan you enjoy all of the little things, which Nash cant do…

Posted by: Nick on February 26th, 2008 at 9:40 pm

Why isn’t Nash guarding the opposing team’s point guard? Isn’t the fact that he’s incapable of doing so, that he has to be hidden on defense, an indictment in and of itself?
—-

i believe that most people would agree that steve’s D is below mediocrity, i wouldn’t even argue with that. but as stated in most comments, he’s got teammates like grant hill and raja bell to fill in that weakness, and steve makes up for it by playing twice as good in the offensive end. that’s the reason why you can’t say that he’s overrated.

i mean, if you’re the coach and your PG allows the guy he’s defending to score 20 points against him, and your PG tries to make up by scoring 20 as well and dish out about 11 assists, isn’t that enough? in PHX’s case i guess that’s more than enough.

and how can you say that PHX’s move to toughen up the defense on the paint is questionable? as far as i’m concerned, SAS beats the hell out of PHX because of TD21, not TP9. now if crtics are expecting steve to go up against TD21, then yeah, steve’s WAAAAAAy overrated.

Posted by: wbsssh on February 26th, 2008 at 9:42 pm

Since when has a guard had the expectations on the defensive end of the floor? Michael Jordan, Kobe Bryant, John Stockton, even Manu Ginobili. Note that three of the four have multiple rings, and if it wasn’t for MJ, Stockton would likely have one or two.

Posted by: Kyle on February 26th, 2008 at 9:45 pm

“Nash is definately not overated. His MVP’s were not based on his great offensive skill or poor defensive skill but his ability to make his teammates better. Scrubs like raja bell and leandro barbosa put up double figures and can start on nash’s squad but thew would be weak players on other teams. He creates for the suns. A phoenix team with marion, bell, stoudemire,and barbosa played with another point gaurd called starbury and didn’t do shit.
Posted by: Ian on February 26th, 2008 at 9:25 pm”

Don’t forget Joe Johnson, who wasn’t even thought of until Nash joined Phoenix.

Posted by: LethaL BoSS on February 26th, 2008 at 9:47 pm

stockton is not guarding Jordan by himself…

they use stockton so that bigger guys can double/triple team jordan once he get the ball…

stop posting if you do not know basketball…

DEFENSE in basketball is pure team work…

defensive stopper, like BOWEN, is a hacker not a defender…

as i have posted before, GIVE NASH HIS CREDIT…

NASH DESERVES HIS MVPs and NASH is NOT OVERRATED… PERIOD…

Posted by: GhiaElcid on February 26th, 2008 at 9:47 pm

I already gave Nash his credit. He’s a great offensive player, which I said. But that’s only 50% of the game, and 50% does not an MVP make. Maybe Utah used Stockton as the first cog in double teams, but Nash isn’t even capable of THAT.

Posted by: Kyle on February 26th, 2008 at 9:50 pm

Lethal Boss, Joe Johnson is a pretty poor example considering he’s established himself the last two years without Nash.

Posted by: Kyle on February 26th, 2008 at 9:51 pm

The ppg against are irrelevant. The scoring margin is what counts.A team like the Suns gives up more but scores more so that’s a very flawed argument.

Let’s face it, the Suns sucked whenever Nash wasn’t playing and that’s why he is so valuable; he changes the whole team.

BTW, Karl Malone, Larry Bird,Magic Johnson all won multiple mvps and were all below average defenders.
Larry and Karl in particular were crap one on one defenders.

Posted by: schooner on February 26th, 2008 at 10:00 pm

you are giving NASH half his MVP credit…

Utah is different from Phoenix…

I enjoy Utah’s game (offense and defense)…
and Stockton is one-hell of a point guard…

I enjoy Phoenix’s game more (offense x 2)…
and Nash is an MVP point guard…

As one poster have said, Nash has his MVP trophy…

And all we (or YOU) can do is WHINE about it…

Posted by: GhiaElcid on February 26th, 2008 at 10:01 pm

I don’t recall who Nash’s main competition was his first season, but I have no qualms with his selection that year (for the most part). But his second one should have gone to Kobe. No one, and I mean no one, thought the Lakers were going to make the playoffs, yet he did get them there. And was one Tim Thomas shot away from sending Phoenix home. But as someone pointed out earlier, the MVP is a joke. My two pieces of evidence. Jason Kidd had the same effect on New Jersey as the Nash-lovers are pointing out he had when he arrived in Phoenix. Kidd finished 2nd to Duncan despite doing the things as Nash, but also playing defense. Secondly, the second year Nash won, Kobe was not in the top 5 of several ballots. Regardless of who you think should have won, you can’t tell me that Kobe didn’t deserve to be in the top 5 that season. But writers vote with bias, and Kobe is not a media darling. He may finally get it this season, but only because it would such an obvious slight that no writer would dare not having him on their list this season.
Lastly, I’m not sure how Nash went from being a solid point guard to being the NBA’s poster boy. I mean, he has great fundamentals — that is one reason. But John Stockton put up Nash numbers for several years, and not once was he in the MVP discussion.

Posted by: JR on February 26th, 2008 at 10:01 pm

Even so, Joe Johnson was a nobody, until Nash did join Phoenix, Kyle, what I mean is Nash is who got him noticed, but it wasn’t until he joined the Hawks and became a one man team that he became an all-star. Kind of like Tony Romo having his incredible season with Terell Owens, not saying that Terell is making him good, but that he brought Romo to stardom. Y’know?

Posted by: LethaL BoSS on February 26th, 2008 at 10:06 pm

Additionally, since my post is not really the FOCUS of the article. I’ve never believed the Suns style could win a title. I’m still on the fence whether that is Nash’s fault in the sense that, without him, they are obviously not the same team. But the recent trade, whether they want to admit it or not, was them conceding that their style was not going to get it done. I actually think it was a bad trade for them, but I guess we’ll see come playoff time.

Posted by: JR on February 26th, 2008 at 10:07 pm

John Stockton put up Nash numbers for several years, and not once was he in the MVP discussion.

two words… MICHAEL JORDAN.

Posted by: wbsssh on February 26th, 2008 at 10:08 pm

Nash is the best in the league
The suns just traded on of their go to guys (marion) for a slower more clumsy guy (shaq). In order for them to mesh with shaq, things have to change A Bit. I think hat once they get some “team” time under their belt, they will be unstoppable, with nash leading the way.

Posted by: Darren on February 26th, 2008 at 10:11 pm

“Kidd finished 2nd to Duncan despite doing the things as Nash, but also playing defense

But John Stockton put up Nash numbers for several years, and not once was he in the MVP discussion.”

And that’s a regular problem with the voting, the little guy often gets ignored.

One of the main reasons I think Nash rose to prominence is that he and the Suns made the NBA more fun to watch again.

Kobe is an awesome scoring machine but the Lakers games were awful to watch until this year and that’s because watching one guy take all the shots and eat up all the possessions is boring.

Posted by: schooner on February 26th, 2008 at 10:11 pm

Wow. You have got to be kidding me. A player that leads his team, from the worst to the best in one year, isnt an MVP. That just doesnt make sense. And for the second year, teams should have been able to stop him with better defenses right. Nope didn’t happen. And Kobe being an MVP???? No way. He is no doubt the best payer around. But he is not a leader in the locker room like Nash, and he cant win anything without a Big Man(Shaq Bynum Pau) and he does not have the leauge best record in thoses years. And MVP doesnt mean all around greatness, it means MOST VALUABLE PLAYER. not MOST ALL-ARROUND PLAYER. I think Kobe would win that, but for everything Valuble its Nash hands down.

Posted by: NASH=MVP on February 26th, 2008 at 10:12 pm

and since Joe Johnson left for atlanta, he became a certified *loser*…

**John Stockton put up Nash numbers for several years, and not once was he in the MVP discussion.

two words… MICHAEL JORDAN.

Posted by: wbsssh on February 26th, 2008 at 10:08 pm **

right on target…

Posted by: GhiaElcid on February 26th, 2008 at 10:14 pm

And in the midst of this ongoing discussion, the Memphis Grizzlies are giving Phoenix a game. Looks like the Suns will pull it out, but man, it was much closer than it should be for a few minutes there. Mike Conley has a double-double and is breaking Nash’s ankles- just drew a three-point play on Nash to keep ‘em in it, too.

Posted by: Andrew Thell on February 26th, 2008 at 10:14 pm

19pts.. 12ast.. 27mins.. +12.. 1min to go..

yeah right.. as if ankle-breakers will win games..

Posted by: GhiaElcid on February 26th, 2008 at 10:17 pm

And in the midst of this ongoing discussion, the Memphis Grizzlies are giving Phoenix a game. Looks like the Suns will pull it out, but man, it was much closer than it should be for a few minutes there. Mike Conley has a double-double and is breaking Nash’s ankles- just drew a three-point play on Nash to keep ‘em in it, too.

—-
yeah, and steve has a double-double too.. so fair enough.. another night for steve to make up for his oh so horrible defense

Posted by: wbsssh on February 26th, 2008 at 10:19 pm

15 and 11 so far, the best game of Conley’s young career…

Posted by: Andrew Thell on February 26th, 2008 at 10:20 pm

for the record, a “stalwart” defense would be a strong, solid one

Posted by: Stephen on February 26th, 2008 at 10:21 pm

Um. I am not awake enough to read the previous 90 comments but. Has anybody commented on whether or not Nash’s offensive contributions outweigh his defensive screw ups? Don’t they kind of cancel eachother? He’s incredible on offense, and perhaps equally horrible on defense. So maybe he just fills that empty space of a point guard, and its on the other 4 guys? Just a thought. Oh yeah, and Shaq sucks ass. He’s gonna keel over of a heart attack. Won’t Bill Walton laugh a lot or what?

Posted by: Jon Jon Mackey on February 26th, 2008 at 10:22 pm

For the record, “irony” means: a: the use of words to express something other than and especially the opposite of the literal meaning b: a usually humorous or sardonic literary style or form characterized by irony

Posted by: Andrew Thell on February 26th, 2008 at 10:22 pm

*edit*

25pts.. 13ast.. 8/11fg.. 6/6ft.. +17..

Posted by: GhiaElcid on February 26th, 2008 at 10:22 pm

I agree with most of your article and I routinely get angry with Nash when he misses a rotation or lets a cutter get to the basket with little interference, however, your “caveat” at the end of this post is very misleading. If you’re going to bring up the season before Nash came, you should also mention the fact that they went from 29 wins to a league-best 62 once he showed up.

Posted by: Joseph on February 26th, 2008 at 10:23 pm

we’re talking basketball.. not english..

anyway, another PHX victory..

got to go.. this article/author SUCKS big-time…

Posted by: GhiaElcid on February 26th, 2008 at 10:25 pm

Thell many others have won NBA MVP and they are even more controversial then Steve Nash getting one or two for that matter. He is an amazing player offensively making up for his lack fo defensive ability. Also MVP stands for most valuable player = Nash since without him Phoenix is just a mix of players. NO one else performed better then him. If you are talking NBA titles Nash still has a long way to go , get off your pro – American butt because Nash is the real deal. Also i was wondering if this is your job or just a random blog b/c if this is your job then you are not doing a good job.

Posted by: Mike James on February 26th, 2008 at 10:28 pm

Phoenix has been in the top five in point differential in every season since Nash arrived.

That’s how you win games, not on how many points you allow.

Posted by: schooner on February 26th, 2008 at 10:36 pm

Stop Hating on Nash. No point guards play defense. Its the hardest position to defend. The last point guard to play defense was the glove. Just cause you get steals don’t mean your playing good defense. There are no guards that just go out and lock someone up anymore. Nash makes scrubs into stars. And don’t forget they woulda been in the finals last year if it wasn’t for Horry’s cheap shot. Stop hating and this idiot writing this article shouldn’t write anymore.

Posted by: hoop12dreams on February 26th, 2008 at 10:37 pm

The suns wud have made it to the finals last year if the spurs didnt have the lucky breaks the suns lost by 2 games…first off game 1 nash had 2 sit out at a critcal timing.i think it was game 3 the reffs was calling everything on the suns and when the suns were obivisly gettin screwed…game 4 i think it was the suns didnt have amare studemire and boris diaw in the line up. game 1 suns only lost by 5 which i think wudnt of happened if u seen wat nash has done in critcal situations like that 05 mavs game 111-108 5.7 secs nash made the game tieing 3. so i think the suns was screwed last year n the shaq and marion trade i think it was the dumbest trade i seen in a while..for the suns it has been fast scoring dats y last year they were the best offensive team but with shaq i think he slows they down and i think marion rebound just as well as shaq does but he shoots better so b4 u ppl go suns cant make the finals relook everything then say that

Posted by: Matt on February 26th, 2008 at 10:38 pm

off the topic..

a friend once asked me, if i were the coach and there’s only 4 secs left on the clock and my team’s down by 2, who would be the best choice to pass the ball to..

my choice was kobe, for the reason of being the best clutch player in the league.

my friend’s reply was, steve nash. he’s reason? it’s still 4 secs left, if you give it to nash, he’s got a higher percentage of making the shot while keeping in mind that he’s also got 4 teammates to pass to before actually deciding to take the shot. as for kobe, every single being in the stadium that breaths know that he’d take the shot.

Posted by: wbsssh on February 26th, 2008 at 10:41 pm

Steve Nash has not been voted MVP twice because of his defensive ability but for the ability he provides on the offensive side and what he does for his team mates. Just like Jordan what is admired most about Nash is the way he is able to increase the ability of his team mates and others around him. You can’t bring NBA finals status into the argument as the voting is finished before the finals are completed.

Posted by: Mr X on February 26th, 2008 at 10:51 pm

So Nash is overrated. Where should he be rated, then?

Posted by: rwmonty on February 26th, 2008 at 10:52 pm

well no body is perfect, do MJ has a double double on his career? i think not.. Well just wait for the time of the PHX. and i think this year is the time for PHX to win a championship if they dont trade Marion on lazy old Shaq

Posted by: Paul on February 26th, 2008 at 10:52 pm

Steve Nash deserve that back2back MVP because he really played well those seasons and nobody play better than him that time

Posted by: Paul on February 26th, 2008 at 10:57 pm

hmmmmmmmmmm, calling Steve Nash overated is such a cop-out!!!

If my memory serves me correctly, wern’t the Suns pretty terrible before Nash got there???

And two, in the two years he won MVP did’nt they lose pretty much every game he did’nt play in???

And three, is’nt the MVP awarded to the best player on a good team during the season and ‘not’ the playoff” (thats what playoff mvp is for duh) who makes a difference on that team? ie indepencible to that team (who is winning) ie steve nash…

And four, it seems to me it is only bitter Kobe fans who call Nash un-deserving and overated… How can you give a guy the MVP on a 7th or 8th seeded team?

Wish the Bobcats had Nash damn we suck. GW for MVP yeah we’re nearly as good as the Lakers were before Bynum decided to play and Gasol got there!

ps isn’t AI a pretty rubbish defender does that make him underserving???

Posted by: nick on February 26th, 2008 at 11:01 pm

“Stop hating and this idiot writing this article shouldn’t write anymore.” – hoop12dreams

amen

Posted by: sunsfan on February 26th, 2008 at 11:03 pm

Steve Nash doesn’t guard good opposing scorers. Raja Bell guards Chris Paul, Baron Davis, etc. This article is a terrible argument. Opponent PG numbers against the Suns don’t reflect on Nash, since he doesn’t guard the more scoring-oriented PGs. Why did you not even consider this in the article?

Posted by: Anonymous on February 26th, 2008 at 11:05 pm

Get your facts straight, dude.

Suns only allowed 102 points last year, and again 102 points the year before.

And the opposing PG average 21 points and 7.4 assists. But the Suns PG average 24 points and 13 assists.

What a lame article.

Posted by: R on February 26th, 2008 at 11:06 pm

In the interest of full disclosure:

Over the last four seasons with Nash in the fold the Suns have gone 4-12 in the 16 games that Nash has missed. He’s clearly a great player who helps them win in the regular season. He’s likely the best offensive player in the NBA, certainly the most pure offensive player, and I don’t dispute that.

If the Suns pull out a title or even make it to the NBA Finals with Nash leading the way, I’ll eat my words. I just don’t think it will happen.

Posted by: Andrew Thell on February 26th, 2008 at 11:08 pm

You are retarded, I mean cmon now. Steve Nash is the best point guard in the NBA flat out…most assists sets his team up the best, what else do you need. Granted yea…he doesnt have the best defense or the best stealing ability. I didn’t read the whole thing just because it doesnt even deserve that…i mean this article is probably the most idiotic thing written…ever.

You probably….probably….forgot to mention that he is the best shooting point guard with great percentages like 50 fg% 90 ft% and 45 3pt%. You also probably forgot to mention that he averages the most assists in the league. You also probably forgot to mention that he raised the record of the phoenix suns from a terrible 19 game winning record to an amazing 62-20. You might have forgotten to write that he has averaged 10+ assists in his last three years.

But hey…you forgot. It’s a mistake…its not like you have something against him because…you might…might be a Kobe Bryant fan…huh?

Don’t write ever again….and I’m being nice

Posted by: Chris on February 26th, 2008 at 11:10 pm

I’m the guy who wrote the comment at 11:10 pm now reading some of the comments…doesnt seem like many people agree with you….RETARD

you’re a moron, hater and most of all flat out an idiot who doesnt know anything about basketball

i hope someone didnt pay you to write this….you just disgrace the game of basketball loser

Posted by: Chris on February 26th, 2008 at 11:13 pm

For those of you joining the discussion late and too lazy to read the whole thing, I’ll post this excerpt from the article again:

“There’s the obvious caveat here: Steve Nash is a great player. He’s unquestionably the catalyst which has transformed Phoenix’s offense into the best and most exciting in the NBA over the last four seasons. In terms of smooth passing skills, court vision, ball-handling and pure shooting Nash is the best player in the league.”

Posted by: Andrew Thell on February 26th, 2008 at 11:14 pm

Chris knows how to write.

Posted by: sunsfan on February 26th, 2008 at 11:14 pm

to all those steve nash haters out there f-u.steve nash never gets any respect. he is no dought the best point guard in the game. He makes his team better when hes off the floor his team falls. when dirk nowitski comes off the floor his team is fine without him! DIRK SUCKS! he never should have been MVP.its unbelieveable to me how much people critisize steve nash for his defense. no one is perfect my god! he at least has a respectable defense. steve nash is not even close to being overated.nash has proved time and time again that he can get it doen when it really matters. I promise u that the Phoenix Suns will win the championship this year and by the way DIRK SUCKS! i am the number 1 suns fan.and also spurs duncan sucks.boston is good but not as good as the suns. just to say again nash is the best in the game and the suns WILL WIN the Chamionship.oh and by the way dirk SUCKS!!!!!!!

Posted by: josh glasco on February 26th, 2008 at 11:24 pm

Josh Glasco should publish his post.

Posted by: sunsfan on February 26th, 2008 at 11:26 pm

Yeah most of the comments here doesnt agree with the writer? Do u play basketball Mr. “writer” of i you does maybe u sucks

Posted by: Paul on February 26th, 2008 at 11:27 pm

my josh your dirk hating machine

Posted by: nick on February 26th, 2008 at 11:31 pm

Nash does get respect, just too much. He is no doubt a great player, but he is over-rated because he has had one of the best teams around him. He gets most of the credit when they win games, but when they lose games he just about never gets blamed. Beside, you need a good team D to win in the postseason, and you can’t have one hole in your D. Since the 02-03 Spurs, the teams that won the Finals had decent D from their PGs(except Miami.Have no idea how they won). And BTW, the Suns can’t beat LA w/o Marion.

Posted by: ??? on February 26th, 2008 at 11:40 pm

First of all, even though I did chime in on the debate, it’s not supposed to be arguing over Nash’s MVP awards.

Second of all, Suns fans are so defensive. I guess 40 years of never winning a title will do that.

And there’s so much revisionist history going on here. The Suns were not as awful as the 29-win season would suggest. They had made the playoffs Amare’s rookie season, losing to Spurs in 6 games. The following year they suffered injuries to Marbury, and Amare only played 55 games. The year before with Marbury, Marion and Amare — that core won 46 games.

Nash’s arrival coincided with Amare’s return, and a roster full of role players that D’antoni had finally put together. They won 62 games. Indeed impressive, but it’s not as terrific a turnaround as we’re being made to believe here.

Posted by: JR on February 26th, 2008 at 11:40 pm

Every year you can make a case for 4 or 5 guys who deserve the MVP award but only one guy can win it, but to say Nash wasn’t deserving is dumb. You all bring up the point of Nash not being able to guard other point guards but no one talks about how they can’t guard him either. Look at the Spurs who use Bowen on him. When teams put their best defenders on you and draw up stratigies to stop you, your definately worth of MVP consideration. Look at tonights game Conely had 15 and 11 and shot 47%FG 0%3FG 100%FT. A career high in 11 assists but lost the game to Nash’s team with Nash having 25 and 13 while shooting 73%FG 60%3FG and 100%FT.

Posted by: Drew on February 26th, 2008 at 11:44 pm

OMG Josh. You must say everything that isn’t Nash sucks. Yeah, Dirk didn’t deserve MVP, but neither did Nash(That year and year before). Btw, Duncan happens to be one of the best PFs in the history of the game.

BTW, Lebron deserves MVP this year.

Posted by: Marcus on February 26th, 2008 at 11:44 pm

“[Dallas} also made it to the NBA Finals in 2006, something they never did before Nash left as a free agent. The Suns haven’t made it there with Nash either. ”

The Suns haven’t, true, but neither have 26 other teams since the 2005 NBA Finals, these teams include the Lakers, Nuggets, Sixers, Jazz, Rockets, Celtics, etc., I don’t think I need to go on.

I’m not hating on your article, I’m just giving factual rebutalls.

Posted by: Joseph on February 26th, 2008 at 11:47 pm

Your facts on the Suns are clearly not well researched. I would expect more of someone who, I would hope, has a background in writing. I understand your argument on Nash’s defensive skills, but you are completely disregarding why he’s won 2 MVPs and continues to be a contender – he was right behind Dirk last year – and is in the top 5 as of today. I mean, did you wear your Kobe jersey when you wrote this? Because it’s very obvious you are no fan of Steve Nash, but then again he doensn’t need an incompetent fan like yourself.

Posted by: J on February 26th, 2008 at 11:59 pm

Nash is great.. but Kobe is better.

No questions about it!

Kobe didn’t deserve an MVP ‘cuz his team was so poor.

He does deserve it this season.

Posted by: R on February 27th, 2008 at 12:01 am

i agree with you “R” im a steve nash fan Nash is Great but kobe is better.. and this season deserves the mvp for Kobe or Lebron

Posted by: Paul on February 27th, 2008 at 12:09 am

When you think about an MVP, you know if you’d made a mistake after giving it to him. I think people would agree Steve Nash deserved them when you look back at those two astonishing seasons. But how did you feel after Dirk accepted the award?
Nash could have put in three in a row and no one would have questioned it.

Posted by: ajboss on February 27th, 2008 at 12:20 am

Steve Nash is a big defensive liability for the Suns. But a successful defense involves the entire team and in this category the Suns are atrocious. And it really falls to D’Antoni for not emphasizing the importance of defense.

I have been a lifelong, diehard Suns fan, and I am still waiting for the ownership and coaching to figure this out. I love the offenses they have produced over the years and think it has done wonders for the NBA’s image makeover, but they must incorporate the same energy into the defensive end.

In the regular season of low stakes basketball the tempo can be dictated by offensive oriented, fast break basketball. The referees are tight on fouls, and so a good offense can win on pretty much any night. But playoff basketball is a grind out, physical affair where officials lower the standards for what is acceptable. And in high stakes ball the stress and mental exhaustion (which is usually the difference between winners and losers) will get to a team that has to score long before it will affect a team that has to stop the scoring.

Will Phx ever do it with Nash? Will D’Antoni read my comments? This team could play D if it were emphasized. They have the athleticism.

To say Nash is overrated or undeserving is just plain wrong. I was surprised by the re-peat, but he was as deserving as any other. The man is an offensive wizard. His big flaw is defense, but here D’Antoni and the coaching is to blame for the team’s weakness. The one on one comparison’s are baseless as Nash doesn’t guard scorers. A good defensive team can successfully make matchup adjustments.

Posted by: yo on February 27th, 2008 at 12:39 am

Let me remind you all that MVP stands for “most valuble player”, not best defender. They already have an award for that. The fact of the matter is that in the two years nash won his MVP’s, he was the most valuble player to his team. The sun’s wouldn’t have even been close to the caliber of team they are now if steve didn’t come there. Also, there is a stat that is most used in hockey games but is now being used in the nba. That stat is the +/-. Steve nash is ranked 3rd in that category for all players, and is first in point gaurds. that means that his team does a lot better when he is in vs when he is not. Finnally, there are 30 teams in the NBA. only 16 of those teams make the playoffs, 8 in each conference. steve nash has led his team to the playoffs in 9 of his 11 complete seasons in the nba. And he led the suns to the playoffs each of his 3 years there.

Posted by: Dave on February 27th, 2008 at 12:49 am

UM….so you Suns poeple that think you will be getting a championship this year…take note that out of all the teams with winning records in the west, Phoenix has the worst record vs. western conference teams. Championship material…I think not.

Posted by: mike on February 27th, 2008 at 1:01 am

**Posted by: yo on February 27th, 2008 at 12:39 am**

*yo*, thank u for a very interesting point of view…
at least someone understands Phx basketball…

here’s another example:

*Gay led the Grizzlies with a career-high 36 points. * (game today, 2/27/2008, Phx-Mem 127-113).

Gay scored at will. Luckily, Nash is not guarding Gay. Else, this moron writer, will put blame on Nash.

Problem with Phx is that they do NOT play team defense. They are really good on Regular Season but is still questionable comes Playoff.

It would be nice if they could really prove that offense (x2) could bring them to the Finals. (But I still had alot of doubt on it)

Posted by: GhiaElcid on February 27th, 2008 at 1:05 am

My God people! Nash leads the league in assists every year, hit’s 90% on his freethrows, 40% on 3 pointers and 50% on anything else he throws up, and he throws up some shots that would make Pistol Pete proud. The additional fact that in 2003 the Suns won less than 30 games and they doubled that his first season there! They have hovered around the 60 games ever since, and had it not been for a cheap shot by Horry and bad decision by the Commish to bench to key players, they could very well have won the Championship last year. And one more thing for all you knuckleheads out there who can’t see this, the MVP is chosen before the end of the season for a reason. It would be too easy to pick who the MVP would be after a Champion has already been crowned. So any of you Nash haters who can’t understand how a guy that is white, can’t jump, is ugly as sin, but can outshoot, outhandle and run circles around 95% of the league, makes his team incredibly better can win the MVP two years in a row (could’ve been three) needs to not talk basketball like they know basketball. Cause you don’t.

Posted by: Anonymous on February 27th, 2008 at 1:06 am

**Posted by: Dave on February 27th, 2008 at 12:49 am**

very very very true…

Posted by: GhiaElcid on February 27th, 2008 at 1:08 am

The only “places” Steve Nash is overrated is in Phoenix and with the voters of the MVP award.

The players and non-hometown fans know just how good he is, and rate him accordingly.

Same goes for Dirk Nowitzki.

I’m not sure what the MVP is supposed to represent, but you would think that Nowitzki and Nash TOGETHER (who were both young, but not rooks, and healthy on the Mavericks team) would have at least made it to the Finals once if they were so good. I’m not even saying that combining MVPs means you should win a title (an expirement that had been tried many times with aging former MVPs), I’m just saying that two past or future MVPs with their youth and health and some years together should at least make the finals once.

Posted by: Allen on February 27th, 2008 at 1:47 am

Dont joke with me,

Steve Nash is pro

Posted by: Sam on February 27th, 2008 at 1:50 am

how did this writter even get to write this article on here, he’s just a Coby fan, and a nash hater, he probably didnt even finish highschool

Posted by: joe on February 27th, 2008 at 1:53 am

I wouldn’t call him overrated, a mvp is one who has the most impact on a team. The examples of Garnett and Bryant, they didn’t do such thing to their team, although being a huge lakers fan i hate to say this, but Nash did do a better job in improving their teammates, remember though Nash got all-star level players as teammates, how were the Suns doing before he came along? No one even considered the Suns competing for a playoff seat. About his defense, you’re dann right about it. He simply cannot defend. Not because he’s too weak but just that points in NBA are too strong, especially in the west, plus you now add Kidd to the conference, there really isn’t much room left to talk about defensive skills and liability. He is not overrated for being an MVP, but i’ll have to say from the MVP vote count for Kobe for past two seasons he was definitely underrated. Kobe is arguably the best defensive player in 2 position if he wants to, but for Nash he’s probably one of the worst in points you can ever find., and the thing is he’s trying, but he’s just not strong enough. That probably has to do with he grew up in canada. Americans (especially african-americans) are just way too frikin strong, got all that from the super heavy weight training and stuff like that, where as we don’t really do that much here in Canada. He deserves the MVP, for sure, what about two consecutive ones? maybe, great offensive player, yes, defense…. huh? where’s his defense???

Posted by: Eugene on February 27th, 2008 at 1:57 am

I think he is actually under-rated. He is not Michael Cooper or Joe Dumars, but he does still play good intelligent help D, and takes a lot of charges. On top of that he makes any team he is in play to the best of their ability and beyond it.

I just got back from watching him tonight in Memphis. It was just cruel the way he teased his opponents. He tried and tried to get his team-mates going without interfering…then every time things got bad, he took complete control and surged them forward. Under-rated

Posted by: Isiah on February 27th, 2008 at 2:09 am

well thats preety amazing how stupid you are sir. i really have no idea what to say u are an complete idiot. those numbers you talked about being an all star line… is made by all stars. so im not quite sure what your teying to rip on him for. he may not be the best defender he certainly isn’t the worst. and STAT is six in blocks in the nba so ya. stop being an idiot and maybe people wont write angry comments

Posted by: christien on February 27th, 2008 at 2:11 am

no disrespect to nash…
i like him though… but nash.??..MVP???

nah..i dont think so..

i think kobe was robbed for the past two seasons..
and no doubt this season he deserves to be the top candidate for MVP…

Posted by: rivers on February 27th, 2008 at 2:11 am

Seriously, what were you thinking while writing this article. If you are on the voting panel for the MVP award, they should strip you of those voting rights because you can’t understand the simple difference between regular season and post season. So, you a kobe fan or lebron fan ? that makes you such a big nash hater ? you might want to revisit the facts about the exact times that nash was on court and what were the opposing team statistics during that time, but you don’t have access to that kind of database, now do ya ?

Posted by: Ken S. on February 27th, 2008 at 2:11 am

MVP means Most Valuable Player, not Best Defensive Player… Get it? PHX’s 30 wins last 2003 is different from 50-60 wins in the last 4 years… Did you get it?

Posted by: Bata Ni Juan on February 27th, 2008 at 3:56 am

you are absolutely right steve nash sucks on D and defence is a thing tht a real mvp should have i have never seen steve nash play real defence

he stinks

Posted by: ALdsTaR on February 27th, 2008 at 4:11 am

i love the sun and steve nash, but nash is one of the worst defender in the NBA

Posted by: bob on February 27th, 2008 at 4:12 am

oh yeah an anonymous 2 places above mine comment :

very great all the stats you write but where re the defensive stats? a real mvp, two time mvp, could’ve been 3 time mvp should have great D but steve nash doesn’t so he shouldn’t have been mvp

Posted by: ALdsTaR on February 27th, 2008 at 4:15 am

you have good points andrew but your obvious bitterness at kobe not having an MVP obstructs your argument- this can be considered ‘bias’ and it detracts from convincing anyone not already in agreement with you
one thing you didnt take into account is the fact D is a team thing- suns dont play it well even even steve is off the floor (raja etc. often take PGs anyway so those stats are somewhat inaccurate)
IF they want to play better D they are going to have to pick it up AS A TEAM. therefore it is not steve alone who is holding them back there. One more reason- D’Antoni’s gameplan is intentionally 90% offense 10% defense- its not just the players.

on other people debating his MVPs
previous MVPs are irrelevant whether they play D or not- different years have different candidates since when do MVPs account for the postseason?
Most people agree that he deserved the first and theres enough evidence for that. the second year was without stoudamire and they did almost as well (against expectations).

Pistons and Celtics dominate the East for the moment and any number of teams in the west are threats but for me the Suns arent out of the picture- who knows if their all out offense will be enough this year? you cant say that steve is holding them back from a title- what were your stats 4-12 without him? they have as much chance as anyone at this point in time.

to JR: kobe had to do more than be a media ‘darling’ to get MVP over nash 2 years ago- their record wasnt good enough period (This year it could well be a different story) Still, what does that have to do with nash being overrated?

Posted by: thinkagain on February 27th, 2008 at 4:27 am

Andrew,

I don’t believe the hype.

I like the article. It’s cute that someone calls it a cop-out when you’re challenging a popularly assumed belief and doing so in a thoughtful, reasoned manner. Isn’t that sort of the opposite of a cop out? It’s not lazy or simplistic at all.

I’ve had issues with Nash even though I see a lot to appreciate. I think it’s interesting that some people in their responses don’t realize that Malone was a fantastic defensive player (only reason Lakers got past the Spurs in 03-04 was Malone’s great D on Timmy), especially later in his career, or that people don’t respect Bowen’s defense and just call him a hack. Some very strange ideas. Bowen’s been a top 5 perimeter defender for like a decade. He’s only slowed in recent years due to age. And he’s been a top vote getter for defensive player of the year for nearly a decade as well. The idea that he’s a strong two way player overall is pretty laughable though. His offense is painfully one-dimensional. He doesn’t even come up in a discussion of the best 20 two-way players in the league.

I think there are additional reasons Nash might be over-rated that you didn’t bring up.

Nash is over-rated, or at least not conscientiously rated when people don’t consider the impact of his coach. His coach runs a system designed specifically to take advantage of Nash’s strengths so it makes him look better than he otherwise would. This system also makes players around him look better as they get more activity and shot attempts. Because many players did not get as much PT on other teams, they are more likely to have their highest career averages with the Suns, and they have.

Suns lovers need to stop saying “if only” with the Horry cheap shot on Nash. You don’t know what would have happened. For a team to lack the mental fortitude and discipline to stay on the bench is an indictment of the team as a whole and the playoff maturity of their players. It only feels like the best chance because you got unlucky in one area. And because it feels like the best chance you assume that the Suns would have won it all when you really don’t know. The strong precedent of playoff teams needing great defense and playing great in the half court to win a championship has held pretty well. I believe the Suns have consistently underutilized Amare the last few years and not built a team to play good D and in half court sets during the regular season and that’s why they’ve failed. You certainly can’t disprove that idea as they haven’t succeeded.

Nash is a sweet player and the Suns can fairly be called the Funs because in Nash’s first season on the Suns they were extremely fun to watch and showed that you can be very successful in the regular season running. The Warriors have been another good example of a strong running team and I think they were a better running team than the Suns last year and this year (they did beat the Suns a few times moving at a faster pace than the Suns). One major difference between the Suns and the Warriors is, incidentally, a point guard that plays strong defense.

Nash is an excellent shooter and particularly efficient at it (most efficient in the league). I don’t think he can take the more difficult shots that other shooters like Ray Allen and Michael Redd can take. That of course could be partly an indictment of the other shooters, but having flexibility as a player means you can take what you want, not just what’s given to you. Nash is a passing wizard, probably a close second after Jason Kidd in this generation. Nash does also, like Kidd, but not as badly, turn the ball over a lot. Nash is a great team leader. Nash was not able to hold his team together with Marion and Stoudemire being unhappy though (which maybe can’t really be considered his fault). Nash is also pretty clutch, but sometimes his back gets in the way. Because of his bad back, he nearly lost a series to the Lakers in 05-06. Seven seconds away from elimination is very close. It’s unfortunate in a way, but players do get rated based on their physical realities, not just how they’d play if they were never injured.

Nash’s poor defense is a problem in the playoffs when sometimes you just really need a stop and other teams can exploit Nash’s weakness to prevent the Suns from getting a critical stop. It’s a serious enough issue that I think he only deserved one MVP at most, particularly when you consider the talent surrounding him. And I think it should keep him out of the Hall of Fame, but with two MVPs, that’s probably not possible.

The best players, the greats in NBA history, find a way to help their team win in the playoffs. Nash hasn’t found a way to improve his major weakness, defense, to do so. And defense is the one area in the game in which it’s easiest to be the most consistent and based on effort more than talent. You don’t become a transcendent great in the game by not doing everything you can to help your team win. The reason Jordan was probably the greatest of all time was not just his offensive prowess, but his defensive skill and effort that he brought on a consistent basis. Jordan didn’t even make his teammates better (like Kidd, Magic, and Nash), but his impact on the game was arguably far more important. Providing teammates with open shots because you’re double-teamed doesn’t make the teammates better, it just makes the game easier for them.

I welcome thoughtful discussion of what I’ve had to say. If you want to just shout, keep a closed mind, or parrot what the mainstream basketball media has told you is true, don’t expect me to respond to you.

In a perfect NBA and with perfect MVP voting, the voters would strongly consider overall game impact and not just be dazzled by great offense.

Posted by: Benjamin on February 27th, 2008 at 4:41 am

Wow so many responses. By the way, Mo from the race to the mvp reads empty the bench and actually linked this page. Awesome.

Posted by: Random NBA Fan on February 27th, 2008 at 5:05 am

Nice article… good reading… Suns fans – your season is IN THE REFRIGERATOR… KOBE and the LAKERS own you this year and will continue to dominate your sorry squad should you meet in the playoffs… i do recall your f*ggot coach said after the last beatdown LA handed on your own floor, “I hope we don’t meet them in the playoffs.” So how does it feel to have an overweight free throw liability now? and I’m not talking about Diaw. Jut ask Raja, the back of his head knows. SHAQ should have won the award the first year your overrated crooked eye PG got it… and yes, Kobe was the true MVP the following year. Don’t blame big shot RoB for throwing your season… it was a combination of that crooked referee and the stupidity of stoudemire to step onto the court. I watch that replay over on youtube and you can clearly see the flop your MVP acted out, just like Raja’s sorry ass does on a consistent basis. Better point guards? I’ll take CP3, Farmar, Arenas, Kidd, Deron, Bibby and Cassell over Nash.

Posted by: 9 in a row on February 27th, 2008 at 8:07 am

We have been having this same discussion for quite some time, here is part 2.

http://www.sportsworldny.com/index.php?showtopic=8815&hl

Posted by: Gregg on February 27th, 2008 at 8:14 am

he doesn’t have the athleticism to ever be a good one on one defender, but he has been useful as a team defender. over the past 3 seasons he has routinely been among league leaders in charges drawn. he simply doesn’t have the strength, length or foot speed to be an effective one on one defender, but he finds ways to use his smarts in basketball. dont forget how bad the suns were before steve nash came. when they still had amare, marion and joe johnson. steve nash is the smartest player in the league. what other mvp candidate does what they do with so little in terms of physical gifts. kobe, lebron, dwight howard, kevin garnett….?

Posted by: iain on February 27th, 2008 at 9:13 am

HE IS ONLY THE TWO TIME MVP BECAUSE HE IS ON ONE OF THE BEST TEAMS IN THE LEAGUE. HE IS A VERY, VERY GOOD PLAYER, BUT MVP?

REMEMBER, WE ARE IN A LEAGUE THAT REWARDS INDIVIDUALS FOR THEIR TEAM’S SUCCESS.
I.E. NASH AND DIRK WINNING MVP.
I.E. BILLUPS, HAMILTON, AND RASHEED WALACE BEING ALL STARS THIS YEAR.

Do you honestly think Nash would be MVP if he was on a mediocre team; or Wallace would be an all star on another team, putting up 13 and 7?

I DIDN’T THINK SO.

Posted by: PYE on February 27th, 2008 at 9:49 am

Deron Williams perfectly explains what an MVP is.

“Picking the MVP has a lot to do with record. A person can’t be on a team that is five games under .500. They have to be on one of the top teams in the conference and be playing unbelievable basketball. It has to be someone that if you took them off the team, they would go from playoff caliber to garbage.”

Take Steve Nash away from the Suns and what do you get? Another mediocre team. Despite the fact that he is a defensive liability, it does not change the fact that without him, the Suns are decent at best. I still believe he earned those two MVPs and maybe should have gotten a third, but I don’t want to spark any comments on that.

Maybe Nash is overrated now, simply because he is getting older and is still getting that MVP caliber respect from those who ride him. However, to say he was always overrated is completely untrue. He brings a lot to the table, and like I said before he makes a team playoff material despite his defense. Note that I say playoff material; not championship material.

Basically, I think Nash deserved those two MVPs and maybe he is overrated now, as in this season. But if you’re saying he was always overrated during his run with the Suns until this season is pure bull.

Posted by: Paco Dominguez on February 27th, 2008 at 10:19 am

OK Steve Nash doesn’t play all-star defense but as far as I’m concerned neither does anyone one the Sundays besides Bell. As for “Mr. Big Shot put up a nice line of 14 points, 11 assists and only 2 TOs… in 20:19 minutes! ” Billups played 29 mins not 20 and every piston was in double figures for that game and they all had less mins then Billups besides Rip. The Pistons could easily rip up any team in the NBA for 30 or so on any given night. “Nash simply cannot contain penetration; he is routinely beat off the dribble and he struggles to get back on open shooters.” Do you say this about all the point guards in the nba that can’t contain his penetration, routinely get beat off the dribble by him, and struggle to get up on his shots? The Phx suns are not defensive team I don’t even think Mike D’Antoni has the word defense in his vocabulary. The only reason Dallas plays defense now is because Don is gone look at the warriors do they play defense? You also mentioned Nash has been torn up by Davis and Paul HELLO who hasn’t been torn up by Davis and Paul. I watched a game not to long ago where Davis had a triple-double against J-Kidd and don’t even get me started on who Chris Paul has torn up (3/4 the NBA’s points guards). This is like saying every SG sucks at defense because they can’t contain the best players at the position. Next you’re going to say Raja Bell or Bruce Bowen (both known for their defense) can’t play defense because they get torn up by Kobe, Lebron, Wade and the list goes on. In all Nash plays his heart out night in and night out, Phx would be lost without him and thats more then I can say for MOST of the players in the NBA if that doesn’t say MVP I don’t know what does.

Posted by: Josh on February 27th, 2008 at 10:23 am

As a Dallas fan and a Steve Nash fan, it was evident that the Mavs were never going to jump that final hurdle to the Finals with Nash. He was a big defensive liability. For a team that was called soft and lazy defensively, it needed a change and letting Nash walk was part of it. This was a brilliant post and something I’ve been arguing for years. Nash is a fine player, but he’ll more than likely never win a championship due to the explosive point guards currently on the scene who can kill the Suns night in and night out. He’s a good player, but a very flawed player.

Posted by: Uwe on February 27th, 2008 at 10:33 am

Uwe: Bingo. Nicely put.

Posted by: Andrew Thell on February 27th, 2008 at 10:49 am

I agree with the writer the second nash won the mvp in 05, yet again in 06.There were at least 2 or 3 guys deservingly so to win mvp’s in that period of time.But honestly so,I think Nash deserved the MVP last year, edging out Nowitzki.Well, I guess the reason why he didn’t won it last year is because mvp voters finally realizes that he shouldn’t have won it for two straight years.

Posted by: olo on February 27th, 2008 at 10:51 am

Posted by: GhiaElcid on February 27th, 2008 at 1:05 am

I agree that it would be an NBA-altering day when an “offense x2″ team like Phoenix can win the championship. Magic’s Lakers were an offense x2 team, but that was before the days of Detroit, Chicago, New York and the other smashmouth teams changed the paradigm in the NBA. I think the NBA would very much benefit if Phoenix or another offensive team (even Kobe’s new Lakers) wins the championship. Of course I am a Phoenix fan and realistically, I think they need to learn to play D for the reasons I said above.

Posted by: yo on February 27th, 2008 at 11:29 am

You can relate this article to like an addiction. One u get high on something wether it be an energy drink or drugs the first time a little bit suits you fine. but after u constantly have the same dose over and over, u seem immune to it and not the same orignal effect u desire, u have to up the dose. Well thats what Steve Nash is like, the first year, everyone was amazed at the way he played and turned the franchise around. The second was more of the same thing with even better numbers and stats. The 3rd was nearly the same, except by this time ppl were getting a bit tired. Well Nash is only human and go so far, he is idleing at this momement because theres not much more he can do. And since ppl can’t get more, they will then turn to accusing him. bottom line, he is not overrated.

Posted by: phx fan on February 27th, 2008 at 11:53 am

And here I thought this article was about being overrated, not about an MVP vote. Did I miss something?

If you are going to talk about the MVP voting you have to at least acknowledge who does the voting for this award. Do I need to say more?

Posted by: Craig W. on February 27th, 2008 at 12:59 pm

Well, Craig… Nash being a tad overrated overall *is* what the article is mainly about (with a mention of the MVP awards too). I think the comments have shifted this discussion more towards the MVP voting than anything else.

Posted by: Brian Spencer on February 27th, 2008 at 1:04 pm

This is the ancient problem for pheonix…

they have one of the best offenses in the league and certainly one of the most exciting to watch. however, with that pro comes the con of not being able to play a lick of D. they had the right idea in going out for a bigman…but why shaq??? i am a die hard laker fan an i was actually happy to hear that they had made that trade. i mean why shaq??? if they were looking to deal shawn marion there is so much more they could have gotten than a guy that already started, for lack of a better word, deteriorating, thanks phil, over 3 seasons ago. wouldnt someone like a ben wallace been better? i dont know…seems like a horrible deal.

Posted by: JJ on February 27th, 2008 at 1:06 pm

Steve Nash is not over rated.. Nash is the best player on the team in that 2 seasons and even D’Antoni having a good coaching so steve nash would look a good player still he does what D’Antoni wants and make it even better i think. Thats the real good player if you can follow what your coach wants and can lead the team to victory and that was he does in those seasons..

Posted by: Paul on February 27th, 2008 at 1:12 pm

Nash is not overrated and The Suns would have beat San Antonio last year in the playoffs had they not had two of their best players suspended for that series.

The problem with Nash is that he should shoot more. He could pile up more points than Kobe, Lebron and everyone else because he is the is best shooter in the league by far. He’s sometimes too unselfish and could rack up a lot more points to go with those league-leading assists and at times, this would would help his team even more and get them more wins.

Posted by: Mike Vancha on February 27th, 2008 at 2:12 pm

i think this is exactly correct. its what seperates great players and players that will never win championships without another 3-4 allstars.

Posted by: Christian on February 27th, 2008 at 2:22 pm

he doesn’t have the athleticism to ever be a good one on one defender, but he has been useful as a team defender. over the past 3 seasons he has routinely been among league leaders in charges drawn. he simply doesn’t have the strength, length or foot speed to be an effective one on one defender, but he finds ways to use his smarts in basketball. dont forget how bad the suns were before steve nash came. when they still had amare, marion and joe johnson. steve nash is the smartest player in the league. what other mvp candidate does what they do with so little in terms of physical gifts. kobe, lebron, dwight howard, kevin garnett….?

I AGREE.

His strength as being INTELLIGENT/SMART ON THE COURT) is what MOST NBA Players missing on their God-given athletic skills…His weakness is what SOME NBA (or even very few) have, which is their physical gifts as you mentioned…

Posted by: [email protected] on February 27th, 2008 at 2:30 pm

another good one: “His teammates need to pick up his slack on D, or they’re not going anywhere this year: period.”

Posted by: [email protected] on February 27th, 2008 at 2:31 pm

“how did this writter even get to write this article on here, he’s just a Coby fan, and a nash hater, he probably didnt even finish highschool”

terrific.

Posted by: Phil Anselmo on February 27th, 2008 at 3:00 pm

basketbawful u are 200% correct, the whole time i was trying to find a reason to show that nash, steve nash, come on, he’s an inspiration to all of us who arent blessed with athletic ability, he plays the game how it should be played, yes, im totally with the fact that he cant play defense, as bawful said, magic was not a good defender, larry bird, hellllll no, so many players who couldnt play d, and by the way, most of the players today who are so called good defenders, are good defenders based on athletic qualities, bowen, and a couple of others dont gamble on passes, but steve nash,is deserving of 2 mvps no matter waht n1 says

Posted by: sjeezy on February 27th, 2008 at 3:07 pm

(On most nights, the all-star point guards were usually guarded by Marion or Bell. You look at those statistics that PG average against PHX…and you blame it on Nash. That is so inaccurate since Nash doesn’t always cover the PG during games. The team is overall to blame, if they don’t win it this year. Sure you can let a player score 50 points…but the chances a player leading the team in points will win a series in the play offs? Look at the Lakers, the past two playoffs against the Suns. Sure Nash has bad defense but he makes it up with his offense.)
-well put

Posted by: chridur on February 27th, 2008 at 3:19 pm

Wow. Lets look at how the suns did before Nash….oh, no playoffs. With Nash: Playoffs and one top of the conference. Geeeeee that doesnt mean anything; for nobody judges according to winning at all.. How can you be considered a sport writer when you obviously have no idea what your talking about. Heres a tip: Pick a different sport to write about. I suggest proffesional darts

Posted by: Smarterthanthiswriter on February 27th, 2008 at 3:24 pm

Has anyone pointed out how bad this team was with Marion, Amare and co. while Nash was out last year or the one before that. They counldn’t beat anyone. Even better when nash leave s the court to go to the bench any game you pick how good do the other players look go back when Marion was still there. I am a Pheonix fan but dam do they look bad at least once a game with out him.

Deron Williams “they would go from playoff calibler to garbage without him”

Sounds like Nash
Same with James, Not Bryant

Posted by: Dan on February 27th, 2008 at 3:24 pm

It’s amazingly easy to spot the people who actually read the article and those that didn’t.

Posted by: Brian Spencer on February 27th, 2008 at 3:47 pm

I absoluty love to read article like this. The columnist brought up a very valid point. Examine what we are talking about;MVP(Most Valuable Player). In other words, out of every player in the NBA who is the MOST Valuable. Steve Nash is a terrific player, but this is not a contest to determine who is good, or even great, but the BEST. In my opinion it’s a two-man race. KOBE or LEBRON

Posted by: Will on February 27th, 2008 at 3:52 pm

Also to add, after Nash came to the Suns, they were running and had more posessions which would ive the opposing team more posessions hence extra points for them as well. Now THAT explains your silly theory of them allowing more points when Nash came. Come on! This is really stupid! Borderline insulting. You went about your way to write an article about Nash after an embarrassing loss when they were adjusting and pointed the finger at someone who you’ve always disliked. Thats too easy and its too easy to see that you want some attention by writing this article. Hence you’ve succeeded and any basketball fan can see through you.

Posted by: Freddie on February 27th, 2008 at 3:54 pm

Hatters

he will bust any one and any ones ass

you need to stop hatting on him.

everyone is bitter because there specific choice of a M.V.P was not choosen. ok he cant play defense…?

is that a suprise to anyone?

defense isnt about steals. this man is willing to a take a charge any time of day. that is also considered defense. he is a smart player. he knows whats he is doing. everyone has a bad game. leave that guy alone. I love how people strip away all his talent, all his achievments, anything this man has done after 1 bad game. good job. Suns will be fine. And those who dont beleive, please dont tune in to watch 1 single game….go watch LBJ, or Bryant…the hell with Nash.

Posted by: Jr on February 27th, 2008 at 4:02 pm

Benjamin made some great points, check them out, but he lost all credibility when he mentioned “intestinal fortitude” regarding the suspensions in last year’s series against the Spurs. It’s not about intestinal fortitude, it’s about fairness and that same lack of intestinal fortitude was displayed by Tim Duncan in the first half, where was his suspension? I couldn’t finish what you were reading because you went down that road and showed your true colors when it comes to this argument. Everything else you typed is just additional Suns-hating garbage.

Posted by: Joseph on February 27th, 2008 at 4:07 pm

“The real value of a super player is that he makes other players better,” – Phil Jackson.

The award is so special because it is not about numbers, it is not about records, it is almost always about leadership. – LA Times

———–

sounds like they were referring to steve, not kobe.

Posted by: wbsssh on February 27th, 2008 at 4:25 pm

The reason I brought up the MVP vote, besides the fact that I was (in part) responding to another comment made before mine, is because I doubt the “Nash is overrated” debate would have ever even become a topic if he hadn’t won one MVP, let alone two.

The main argument against Nash as an MVP, or Nash in consideration as one of the NBA’s best players, has been and will always be his defense, or lack thereof. That’s why I said the argument was somewhat redundant. Way back in ’06 everybody trashed the Nash MVP based on his D, and used the way Chauncey Billups had lit him up in Detroit as Exhibit A in the Case of How Steve Nash Is Overrated.

Nash’s defense is bad, but his limitations are exacerbated by bad coaching and bad defensive schemes. For instance, one of Nash’s most glaring weaknesses as a defender is his propensity to lose focus on his man and wander in the direction of the basketball. It would be one thing if he was committing to a double-team, or even playing the passing lanes. But he doesn’t do either. He just kind of floats away, which leaves his man open for a jump shot, and if Nash rushes at his man, that player can then very easily take him off the dribble. Mike D’Antoni and the rest of the Suns coaching staff must know this. And it’s an easily correctable problem. Just tell Nash to stay at home on his man unless he’s committing to a double-team. Yet that correction has not been made in four years. Why?

Also, the Suns don’t seem to have a set defensive scheme to protect Nash. When Larry Bird played with the Celtics, he was coached to stay on his man and, if beaten off the dribble, guide the player toward his shot blockers (Robert Parish and Kevin McHale). When beaten, Nash simply retreats backward toward the basket when he should be guiding his man toward, say, Amare Stoudemire or (when he was there) Shawn Marion. But that almost never happens.

And part of the problem with the Suns (and Nash’s)defense is the Suns offense. Everybody is thinking “run run run” the entire time they’re on D. That’s why they’ve been such a poor rebounding team. Everybody wants to leak out and sprint downcourt after the opposing team shoots…only, who’s rebounding the ball? Who’s boxing out? The answer: Nobody.

Anyway, sure, Nash is a poor defender, but a lot of that is either correctable or symptomatic of bad schemes. I still don’t think that makes him overrated, nor so I think that’s The Reason the Suns won’t win a title…which, of course, presumes they won’t. And we just don’t know that yet.

Posted by: basketbawful on February 27th, 2008 at 4:28 pm

So the fact that Jason Kidd didn’t do shit with the suns dosen’t mean anything to you? The fact is the suns were a sub par team before they got Nash. They get him and immidiatly became one of the top in the West. It was Nash alone that turned the team around. In my opinion the only guy who maybe should have won over Nash was Tim Dunkin for the Spurs. Kobe wasn’t even making the playoffs without Shaq and hasn’t done anything without him for years. What makes a player good? winning games. Nash does that better then anyone else in the NBA. Not to mention all the charges he takes. That’s pretty good defence if you ask me. Come playoff time the only team better then Phoenix will be the Spurs, not the overrated Lakers. You might not believe me but history shows that that’s going to be the case. How many years has Steve Nash beaten Kobe in the first round of the playoffs with Phoenix?

Posted by: Phoenix on February 27th, 2008 at 4:42 pm

Nash is a classic and undoubtedly one of the great nba pg’s. no he does not score like a kobe or lebron, an his D aint great but his passing, leadership and ability to make the team around him better is truly second to none. as for having all-star caliber players around him no team can win consistently with only 1 quality player, look at kobe… he is deservedly favorite for this years mvp even though his stats are no better than they were wen nash won his mvp’s. this is because his team are winning basketball games now due to the trade for a top class player in gasol.

Posted by: swfc on February 27th, 2008 at 4:46 pm

“Benjamin on February 27th, 2008 at 4:41 am”

Benjamin, I guess you were serious when you wrote your text, but I doubt you thought a long time beforehand. Or if you did, it was in a funny way.
I had to comment on some parts of it (the ones that made me laugh) :

“Nash is over-rated, or at least not conscientiously rated when people don’t consider the impact of his coach. His coach runs a system designed specifically to take advantage of Nash’s strengths so it makes him look better than he otherwise would.”

Okay, so I’ll explain something to you. It’s a coach’s job to correctly use his players, starting with his top players.
That’s what the “Coach of the Year” award is for.
And guess what, D’Antoni got it, for his job with the Suns. Saying that Nash’s over-rated because his coach based the team’s play on his strengths is madness. In your theory, any player in a good team is over-rated…

“The Warriors have been another good example of a strong running team and I think they were a better running team than the Suns last year and this year (they did beat the Suns a few times moving at a faster pace than the Suns). One major difference between the Suns and the Warriors is, incidentally, a point guard that plays strong defense.”

And… what’s your point exactly ?
For the last seasons, the Warriors have always been below the Suns in victories.

“Nash is an excellent shooter and particularly efficient at it (most efficient in the league). I don’t think he can take the more difficult shots that other shooters like Ray Allen and Michael Redd can take. That of course could be partly an indictment of the other shooters, but having flexibility as a player means you can take what you want, not just what’s given to you.”

I really understood that you don’t understand basket-ball when I read that part.
Nash isn’t a great shooter because he shoots whenever he can, but because he does it whenever he must. That’s called “shot selection”.
And that’s the main reason why Kobe never got an MVP award.
Nash doesn’t force shots, he takes the ones he knows he can put in, or passes the ball to the player in the best situation (and most of the time, he’s the one who created that situation).
Why would you shoot with 2 guys on you when one of your teammates is alone, with a clear view on the basket ?
Where do you think all those assists come from ?…

Nash makes his teammates better because, most of the time, he chooses the correct option.

Posted by: Jaw on February 27th, 2008 at 4:51 pm

Ok look. Nash is a little overrated than what he is. Don’t get me wrong he is an amazing player even though i don’t like him or the suns. He knows how to run a offense very well. When defense comes, he sucks, the team sucks, they suck at defense. I’m not just saying this because I don’t like them but its true. The reason of Nash getting 2 mvp titles is because he was on the best team at the time. If it was just best performing player and best player or w/e you want to call it, it would be Kobe hands down. Rookie players play better defense than him.
Nash is overrated, he’s still a great player but just people make more of him than what he is. He gets all the credit, the rest of the team doesn’t. They don’t say Amare scored 25 points, they say Nash helped Amare score 25. They give all the credit to Nash, and when they play bad on defense, they say the team needs to help Nash out alot more, it is never blamed on Nash about anything. Same with the Lakers, Kobe always gets the credit, but he should get most of it, he’s always the one to be relied on. This season is different, Kobe’s got a good team like the Suns, but Kobe knows how to lead a team to the finals, he’s done it before.
I’m just saying, Nash is a little overrated.

Posted by: Ryan on February 27th, 2008 at 5:10 pm

Steve Nash should be a 3 time MVP.

the downside of free speech >

Posted by: yawn on February 27th, 2008 at 5:45 pm

They have an award for defensive players. Can you make an argument that there were more valuable players to there team than Nash was to his?

Posted by: Elton on February 27th, 2008 at 6:03 pm

yeh the other team gets a lot of points htat just cause nash will either score quickly or get some else to score quickly. hence both teams have more possession and therefore more shots.

Posted by: Fabio on February 27th, 2008 at 6:25 pm

I think everyone forgets that the Suns before Nash were a decent team. Before the season they didn’t make the playoffs, they made the playoffs. Marbury was beginning to hit the decline the next season.Not only that, but Barbosa was still learning the game, Amare, as good as he was, was also still learning. And if I remember correctly, they didn’t have a good team chemistry.

Also, Nash gets all the credit because he “made” the Suns better. It’s true, but at the same time they made him better too. In Dallas, he was averaging at least 7 assists per season, but he didn’t have the depth the Suns had.That’s why he got the assists bumped up to 10 or 11.

And for the record, Nash didn’t deserve MVP a second time, and shouldn’t have led Lebron in MVP voting the next year.

And for the guy that said Nash would be better than Kobe and those guys if he shot more, you are wrong. More shots generally lead to lower FG% and sometimes 3 pt %. Not only that, but he is around 6’3″. Players that small shouldn’t take more shots than the SG or SF.

For those of you that say Nash deserved the 2nd, you guys are also wrong. LBJ had a far weaker team than Nash does, and still got his team into the 4th seed in the East. I suppose because he played in the East is the reason Nash and then Dirk beat him for MVP.

As far as players that deserve MVP goes, MVPs should still be able to win it as long as they’re in the playoffs.

Posted by: Anonymous on February 27th, 2008 at 6:30 pm

So much criticism for the 2 time MVP. Everyone hates him and I still don’t have a clue why. Take Nash out of the line up and what happens, the offensive points plummet. Maybe people criticize him for being Canadian? I don’t care if he’s born on Mars; he’s the best player, on the best team in the West. I understand what people are saying about the defense, but that’s what they brought in Shaq for. Since he’s been added to the team, team rebounds have gone up aswell as second chance points. All we have to do is be patient with the Suns. It takes time for a team to adjust to a change in the roster, especially if that change is Shaq coming to the line up, and Marion going out. Give it time, have some patience, they’ll be ready for the playoffs, mark my words

Posted by: Wolfgang on February 27th, 2008 at 6:33 pm

oh and for the guy up there saying that candian’s don’t do weight lifting. dude, you must be some nerd who lives in their mother’s basement. not to be rude, but you got to get out and go to the ymca or some fitness centre, there’s some crazy weight lifters out here. just open your eyes. don’t use that as an excuse to help nash. Point-guards don’t really have a big body build because they don’t need it. Sure it’ll up their game, but come on man, stop making excuses Eugene

Posted by: Wolfgang on February 27th, 2008 at 6:38 pm

Wolfgang, nobody from Empty the Bench “hates Nash.” Far from it. In fact, as you see in the article, there’s actually quite a bit of praise for his game.

Posted by: Brian Spencer on February 27th, 2008 at 8:52 pm

*Brian Spencer*

sure… you only think that nash is over-rated, right? :)

CP3 is currently outplaying (big-time) 2-time mvp nash right now…

i think lebron-vs-kobe-for-mvp will include one more name…

and if NO will top the west, i believe we will be having one over-rated mvp-to-be-PG in discussion again.. :)

Posted by: GhiaElcid on February 27th, 2008 at 9:45 pm

Well, usually points don’t have to, Wolfgang, but this is NBA dude, and one thing to mention about, you’ve ever seen the body of Baron Davis or Derom Williams? Did they born with with the muscles? NOOOOO, they got it through super heavy weight training. I’m not saying Canadians are weak and I’m also not looking for excuses for Nash. And if any part of my article is saying that Canadians don’t do weight lifting I apologize… but no i don’t have to, because apparently someone started to criticize other people’s comment before they’ve read the post. I’ve never said anything like Canadians don’t do weight training. I’m just saying compare to what they’ve done in high school and college down in states, there isn’t really much to talk about. Again I have to agree with you with one point, why do the points need the muscles for anyway? There’s a simple answer, because you’re playing at the best league on earth. It’s the NBA. Nash’s got some nasty passing and shooting skill. but don’t tell me he can defend. He does a good job taking people’s charges and that’s about it. That’s not going to do anything when they’ve already bypassed him, oops, there’s no one to take a charge of. That’s why on this point I think Kidd will always be a better off point guard option for any team. Although he hasn’t proved it yet with a championship, don’t forget Nash never had a championship either, and when you compare the teammates of the two for all the teams they’ve stayed. Answer is pretty obvious. Nash is evidently better in shooting. Passing you can’t really tell who’s better (behind the back Nash owns it though). Defensive end Kidd is in a very obvious way owning the crap out of Nash. REMEMBER one thing, what is the ultimate strategy to win a championship. DEFENSE!!! That’s why Shaq is there, that’s why Steve Kerr is willing to risk. Because everyone knows, and this including Nash himself, as good as Phoenix is on the offensive end, that’s never going to win them a championship. Chances are not low, it’s almost none. Nash still got two years, but Shaq is basically done after this season. If they can’t pull out a championship this May. They’ll probably have to go through another rebuild era just like 4 years ago shortly after Nash retires.

Posted by: Eugene on February 27th, 2008 at 10:35 pm

the question isn’t whether or not he’s a good player. (obviously he is.) it’s whether or not he is overrated. and the answer is … yes, he is.

Posted by: Rysdale on February 27th, 2008 at 10:59 pm

cmon..we all noe nash has weak D..but so wad..basketball is team sport where ur other teammates r suppose to cover their teamates flaws..but to call him overrated..u gon too far.. look at the suns play when nash is off the court..their offensive rymth is toally off..and the assist tnumbers r down..the subsitude which is usually barbosa like to hog the ball and drive down the lane and usually get block by a big fella..if the suns wld to lose nash in case of injury..u will see it will no better than miami or memphis

Posted by: edz on February 27th, 2008 at 11:05 pm

Let’s put the excuses to rest, shall we? No more, “Nash is slow, so he can’t play solid defense” or “Nash isn’t strong, so he can’t play solid defense” or “Nash has a bad coach, so he can’t play good defense.” I don’t care WHY he doesn’t play well on one end of the floor. The fact THAT he doesn’t is all that matters. The point is, he’s a very poor player on defense, and that’s at least half of the game of basketball.

Elite players can’t just be great half the time.

Also, all the comments about what the Suns would be without Nash are rubbish too. Without Kobe the last few years, the Lakers would be terrible. Without Kevin Garnett the Wolves ARE terrible. Without LeBron the Cavs would be terrible. Without Dwight the Magic would be terrible. Without Arenas the Wizards are… better. Without Duncan the Spurs would be terrible. Who cares? That doesn’t change the fact that Steve Nash’s style of play, capabilities and performance have never led to an NBA title or even an NBA finals appearance on some very good teams- and they never will.

His game is fundamentally flawed, and as a result his teams can’t succeed in the playoffs. Therefore, if you think he’s the best or one of the best players in the NBA then he’s overrated. He’s a great player. The NBA has a lot of great players. He’s not one of the top 5-6 players in the league though, never has been, and no team with him as their centerpiece has ever or will ever win a title because of his undeniable and glaring deficiencies on the defensive end of the floor. Period. Let’s not make it more complicated than it is, that’s the bottom line.

Posted by: Andrew Thell on February 27th, 2008 at 11:06 pm

ok guys.. let’s just agree with Mr. Andrew Thell..

discussion done..

Nash is overrated..
and Mr. Andrew Thell is a blind pro-Kobe moron..

:) just kidding..

anyway, i think the point here is unless Nash wins his ring, he won’t have the respect of some basketball aficionados..

as for me, he ain’t overrated..
he’s old now.. visibly slow and being outplayed by younger, stronger, and faster PG..
but his 2-MVPs, he definitely deserves it..

hat’s off to the skinny white guy..

Posted by: GhiaElcid on February 28th, 2008 at 12:19 am

Actually, this year LeBron James or Chris Paul gets my vote to this point. I’m undecided between those two. But Kobe isn’t far behind.

Posted by: Andrew Thell on February 28th, 2008 at 12:40 am

yes, as of now, it’s a 3way battle between (according to my rank):

1. Kobe – team is just too good as of this point
2. Lebron – one-man carrying his team above .500
3. CP3 – heart&soul of NO

but if LAL will top the west, i’ll have to choose between Kobe vs Mitch K (i can’t spell his last name) :)

Posted by: GhiaElcid on February 28th, 2008 at 12:53 am

Steve Nash is over rated? I definately agree.
If Nash had smuch parker, kwame brown, luke walton and lamar odom on his team they wud do no better then what kobe did for them, almost beating the suns one year in the playoffs. Kobe Bryant or LeBron james are the only players in the race this season for MVP. Kobe gets Pau Gasol finally a decent power forward and all of a sudden kobe shoots a better % gets more assists and wins more games, kobe only needs 1 all star, nash needs three all stars and gets less wins.
Does anybody else notice Nash ALWAYS needs a pick set for him, he can’t beat his man to penetrate, the best point guards don’t need a pick every time down the court on half-court play. Kobe is the best player hands down in the west, LeBron james is the only one giving Bryant a run because of amazing individual stats, but LeBrons team record is the only thing holding him back from winning this year. Steve Nash’s career is over now, No doubt about it.

Posted by: Mike M. on February 28th, 2008 at 3:06 am

And EVERYBODY from now on, take a look at what this risky writer has to say on February 27th, 2008 at 11:06 pm. just scroll up to that point and it says it all right there. this writer boldly questioned the player all the old men over 60 love to talk about.

Posted by: Mike M. on February 28th, 2008 at 3:28 am

what would Amare think about all this?
he would be asking himself, if anyone noticed, that the Suns are a great team even without Nash. Okey, they have to change their style of play, but meanwhile they have great individual talent and are a sure playoff team!
Allthough Nash ist perfekt for their offensive system, replace him and give the Suns any other true passing point guard, maybe Andre Miller, and you will see them on top of the West as always.
Oh no, they will be a better defensive team of course.

Posted by: Kai on February 28th, 2008 at 8:08 am

“and at the very least he should have at least made one Finals appearance”

….ummm, its called MVP of the regular season, they already have an MVP award for the finals.

Posted by: b on February 28th, 2008 at 11:30 am

the only reason nash is viewed as a great player is because he is white…the only white player that is producing. Dirk proved his weaknesses in the playoffs last year and so did Ak-47. The white media needs someone to look up to…Nash. And so they over-rate him and make him seem better than he really is…im white and that is what i believe. It is true because my son loves Nash and said it only because Nash is white
Fuck Nash he is over-rated!!!

Posted by: Cracker Lover on February 28th, 2008 at 12:14 pm

What a joke. Take a look at Phoenix pre-Nash. One of the worst teams in the NBA. Take a look at the Suns when he’s injured. One of the worst teams in the NBA. Take a look at how the Suns lose leads night after night when Nash in on the bench and how they quickly regain the lead when he’s back on the court. He makes everyone around him vastly better players. No, he’s not a defensive player, but he’s not the only Sun player who has that problem. To say he was not the best point guard and the most valuable player to his team, in his two MVP is a complete joke. By reading many of the posted comments, I have to wonder if he’d more appreciated if he WAS a black player.

Look at the comment by ‘Kai’. It was Amare who PERSUADED Steve to join the Suns. Remember how pitiful the Suns were BEFORE he joined the team. Can’t remember? Okay, look at how they do when Steve’s been sidelined? Can’t remember as far back as the game before last? Okay, look at how nine times out of ten, they lose leads when Steve’s on the bench.

Steve Nash was the obvious MVP in the two years he won. Plain and simple

Posted by: ballhawg99 on February 28th, 2008 at 12:23 pm

Anyone saying he is overrated talks utter rubbish. nash deserves every plaudit he gets, he makes that team tick. Judged solely on the regular season last year, i reckon he was unlucky to lose out to dirk. he’s a great player even if he is a spurs fan (thats tottenham, not san antonio!)

Posted by: ojbullsfan on February 28th, 2008 at 1:11 pm

“First of all, even though I did chime in on the debate, it’s not supposed to be arguing over Nash’s MVP awards.

Second of all, Suns fans are so defensive. I guess 40 years of never winning a title will do that.

And there’s so much revisionist history going on here. The Suns were not as awful as the 29-win season would suggest. They had made the playoffs Amare’s rookie season, losing to Spurs in 6 games. The following year they suffered injuries to Marbury, and Amare only played 55 games. The year before with Marbury, Marion and Amare — that core won 46 games.

Nash’s arrival coincided with Amare’s return, and a roster full of role players that D’antoni had finally put together. They won 62 games. Indeed impressive, but it’s not as terrific a turnaround as we’re being made to believe here.
Posted by: JR on February 26th, 2008 at 11:40 pm”

Yeah, but the year after that didn’t Amare sit out for like the whole fucking season due to injury, Phoenix didn’t go back to winning 30 games again did they? lol

Posted by: LethaL BoSS on February 28th, 2008 at 4:55 pm

“the only reason nash is viewed as a great player is because he is white…the only white player that is producing. Dirk proved his weaknesses in the playoffs last year and so did Ak-47. The white media needs someone to look up to…Nash. And so they over-rate him and make him seem better than he really is…im white and that is what i believe. It is true because my son loves Nash and said it only because Nash is white
Fuck Nash he is over-rated!!!
Posted by: Cracker Lover on February 28th, 2008 at 12:14 pm”

—Your classic retard post. You didn’t say anything besides that you’re white and Nash is. How many fucking times have black people won the MVP? You didn’t even point out any reason why Nash IS over-rated or who should of won the MVPs over him. The NBA is not a racist league, and just because you are don’t act like everyone else is. Please, leave this website and don’t ever post again.

Posted by: LethaL BoSS on February 28th, 2008 at 4:59 pm

“Steve Nash is over rated? I definately agree.
If Nash had smuch parker, kwame brown, luke walton and lamar odom on his team they wud do no better then what kobe did for them, almost beating the suns one year in the playoffs. Kobe Bryant or LeBron james are the only players in the race this season for MVP. Kobe gets Pau Gasol finally a decent power forward and all of a sudden kobe shoots a better % gets more assists and wins more games, kobe only needs 1 all star, nash needs three all stars and gets less wins.
Does anybody else notice Nash ALWAYS needs a pick set for him, he can’t beat his man to penetrate, the best point guards don’t need a pick every time down the court on half-court play. Kobe is the best player hands down in the west, LeBron james is the only one giving Bryant a run because of amazing individual stats, but LeBrons team record is the only thing holding him back from winning this year. Steve Nash’s career is over now, No doubt about it.
Posted by: Mike M. on February 28th, 2008 at 3:06 am”

Listen Mike M., making comments like “If Nash had so and so and if Kobe had so and so” are irrelevant to this argument because they can never be proven one way or another. When you’re debating with someone, use facts not estimations.

Also, the whole Lakers franchise was built around Kobe Bryant and Shaq would still be in LA if Kobe wasn’t bitching. Since we’re talking about colossal players who’s very existence decide what the franchise will look like your comment is pretty void. Kobe Bryant was still in the top 3 for MVP BEFORE THEY GOT PAUL GASOL, and unlike the last few years Kobe is actually averaging some assists instead if twenty, 50 point games just during the season, not even counting the playoffs. Assist = team player, that is what the NBA looks for when deciding for MVP, players who make their teams better. If they had an award for best all around player Kobe would win it every year. But, before this year the only person Kobe Bryant was making better than they usually were was… well… Kobe fucking Bryant.

Posted by: LethaL BoSS on February 28th, 2008 at 5:13 pm

God, and I hate to post so much but I noticed your comment about Nash needing picks to make shots. What the team uses to make points has absolutely nothing to do with how good he is. If everyone could make buckets off the pick and roll like Nash don’t you think everyone would do it? And Nash has a habit of just coming down court in a paint full of big men and scoring with left handed finger rolls whenever he wants, or dribbling around the bucket and coming up around the elbow and shooting right in your face for an easy 2. You obviously haven’t seen the Suns play very much have you? What about when he just runs up court and shoots a 3 in the defenders face without a second thought? Nash can score anyway he wants but the pick and roll is tricky and sets Amare up for points, basically its hard to guard. Saying shit like “He only makes points because picks” is like saying “Tim Duncan only makes points off the backboard”, when firstly he doesn’t, and even when he does he only does it because its a higher percentage shot.

Posted by: LethaL BoSS on February 28th, 2008 at 5:21 pm

Surprise. That is the reason why Nash won MVP in his first two years with the Suns. He surprised everyone when he transformed the team into a playoff contender. He surprised everyone when he suddenly averaged 11.5 assists per game since he only averaged under 8 during his career before phoenix. He surprised everyone when they adapted the high-octane, our-offense-is-our-defense type of basketball. And look how many teams have adapted their style of basketball. There was even a time when the Wizards called themselves “the Phoenix Suns of the East”. If you look back now at the Suns, then yes, you would think that Nash is overrated. But back then, even you would wonder that a team who had the 2nd worst season record would suddenly have the best record the season after. And it was because of Nash. I’m a Suns fan, but I’m not saying that Nash has good defense. It’s just that when he first came to Phoenix, defense wasn’t as important to them as to others. That’s what made them unique, that’s what drew attention, that’s what led to their success (in the 03-04 season, for that matter…), and that’s what garnered Steve Nash the two MVP titles. Surprise.

Posted by: fatal error on February 28th, 2008 at 7:28 pm

oh come on! steve nash is probably one of the most unselfish scorer in this league…. (well, of course he is a point guard) I agree that he has defensive liabilities and that Kobe plays crazier basketball than he does, but COME ON! Kobe is a scorer, a shooting guard, and he lives and thrives in shooting. Nash is a playmaker, he makes everyone else in his team better, he can score at will, drop down treys, or drive around centers.

I think Nash deserves his MVPs

Posted by: Lippo on February 28th, 2008 at 7:51 pm

**LethaL BoSS**

i agree with you…

lots of moron are posting without even thinking and not even based on facts…

anyways, LA is the no. 1 team in the west…
Mitch Kupchak for MVP!!! :)
Mitch Kupchak for MVP!!! :)
Mitch Kupchak for MVP!!! :)

Posted by: GhiaElcid on February 28th, 2008 at 8:02 pm

if the suns were in the east,they would have been in the finals and lost to san antonio 2-4 last year.

Posted by: stephen abella on February 28th, 2008 at 10:45 pm

Who fuckin’ cares who the MVP is. Of course Steve Nash is the MVP. The Suns would be garbage without him. I mean, he’s more likely to be mistaken for a fuckin’ teacher rather than a baller. Give the guy a break as well, usually most guards are already in the twilight of their careers at this age, this man is still tearing it up. Get over it everyone, the skill package of Steve Nash far outweighs most everyone in the league. Take any of these players you’ve got for MVP now, tell me if they’ll have even close to the same stats as Steve Nash when they’re all the same age.

Posted by: Tyson on February 29th, 2008 at 12:04 am

FOR ME AS A FAN OF PHOENIX SUNS COMMUNITY,STEVE NASH IS MY REAL MVP ALL DOW THERE DOWN TO THE PACIFFIC DIVISOIN.

Posted by: ANGELO BRYAN on February 29th, 2008 at 1:30 am

God, and I hate to post so much but I noticed your comment about Nash needing picks to make shots. What the team uses to make points has absolutely nothing to do with how good he is. If everyone could make buckets off the pick and roll like Nash don’t you think everyone would do it? And Nash has a habit of just coming down court in a paint full of big men and scoring with left handed finger rolls whenever he wants, or dribbling around the bucket and coming up around the elbow and shooting right in your face for an easy 2. You obviously haven’t seen the Suns play very much have you? What about when he just runs up court and shoots a 3 in the defenders face without a second thought? Nash can score anyway he wants but the pick and roll is tricky and sets Amare up for points, basically its hard to guard. Saying shit like “He only makes points because picks” is like saying “Tim Duncan only makes points off the backboard”, when firstly he doesn’t, and even when he does he only does it because its a higher percentage shot.

Posted by: luisfrancisco on February 29th, 2008 at 3:17 am

God, and I hate to post so much but I noticed your comment about Nash needing picks to make shots. What the team uses to make points has absolutely nothing to do with how good he is. If everyone could make buckets off the pick and roll like Nash don’t you think everyone would do it? And Nash has a habit of just coming down court in a paint full of big men and scoring with left handed finger rolls whenever he wants, or dribbling around the bucket and coming up around the elbow and shooting right in your face for an easy 2. You obviously haven’t seen the Suns play very much have you? What about when he just runs up court and shoots a 3 in the defenders face without a second thought? Nash can score anyway he wants but the pick and roll is tricky and sets Amare up for points, basically its hard to guard. Saying shit like “He only makes points because picks” is like saying “Tim Duncan only makes points off the backboard”, when firstly he doesn’t, and even when he does he only does it because its a higher percentage shot.
oh. and he is great in bed too.

Posted by: luisfrancisco on February 29th, 2008 at 3:17 am

How can u call steve nash overrated? last time i checked defense is a team thing and does not depend upon one point guard. Suns as a team are quite weak defensively therefore it is not fair 2 throw all the heat on nash. Wat nash has done for the suns franchise is something that very few players in history have done. His numbers are outstanding, averaging double figures in assists for 4 straight seasons has not been done since john stockton. Chauncey is barely averaging 8 assists, hw cn u call him a ‘great point guard’. Nash’s shooting numbers are also insane, 51% frm the field 46% three’s and 89% freethrows which puts him in line as one of the best shooters in nba history and he has done this for consecutive seasons. Nash is 34 yet he is still able to pull off numbers like these and this is what people fail to understand. The lakers have a very deep bench that most of the times are the reason why the lakers win games. The suns only really use diaw and barbosa. So instead of comparing nash to point guards that are 10 years younger than him, i think people should realise that the suns are just in slump and struggling to adjust to shaq. They will bounce back just like any great team. San antonio didnt get any heat 4 the various slumps they had in the past seasons as its all about the playoffs. So we will see come the playoffs whether the lakers and hornets have the ability to beat more experianced teams in the league like spurs, mavericks and suns. Yes nash deserved both his mvp’s more than shaq and more than kobe, he simply had the best numbers in one of the best teams

Posted by: sunz fan on February 29th, 2008 at 3:55 am

The reason why Nash’s teams allow more points is not necessarily poor defense. It’s really because he’s so good at pushing the ball down and scoring in a hurry, leaving more time on the clock for the opposing team. Thus, the opposing team will have more possessions, more shot attempts, and naturally, more points.

Nash deserves every MVP award he’s gotten, as well as every MVP award Dirk has. Nash has improved everyone around him as well as other point guards in the league. Take Chris Paul, for example, who studied tapes of Nash to get where he is today. Nash has had a big impact on the game of basketball, just as Federer has had on tennis. Those who criticize Nash don’t realize how unique he is and how he’s improved his teams as well as the sport itself. This is why the Nash critics on this board had no say in choosing Nash as MVP and likely will never gain respect from anyone who has even a slight understanding of the game of basketball.

Posted by: Mikey Mike on February 29th, 2008 at 4:33 am

I don’t think Nash is overrated. In fact before he won those MVP honors, he was one of the most underrated players in the NBA. He started out in the NBA as substitute and perhaps considered a bench warmer and now he is one of the greatest player in NBA.

We cannot blame him if he is now getting slow. People do age. The question why Phoenix cannot reach the finals is not his fault. We people sometimes forget how he revived a whole franchise because of his presence. And that is why he is considered 2 time MVP. The last two playoffs was really were just plain BADLUCK. 2006 season could have been won if they have Stadoumire in the line-up. 2007 season could also been won if this stupid suspensions which started out with an unnecessary foul by Horry did not happen. All these points is now being over looked by the so-called experts. This year, lots of teams and players are reaching their prime. This year is more competitive compared in the last couple of years. Phoenix might be in trouble this time, but I don’t think it will last. Let’s wait until we see them in the Playoffs and prove that they are the best.

Posted by: canabee on February 29th, 2008 at 5:47 am

this hole thing goes in the wrong direction…..Nash is, for sure, a great basketball player, good enough for an MVP Trophy!
Well, I don´t think he should win two, but the first for sure!
This article is about his defense, and if he is overrated because he is bad on the other end of the court. nobody questioned his offensive abillities, just the fact, that it could be tough in close games…well maybe it wouldn´t even be that close in the game without nash, think about it… that´s his fate, he has to make his offense beeing one point better than there defense, if not…well, here we are…:o)

Posted by: Kai on February 29th, 2008 at 8:18 am

Steve Nash has deserved to win MVP 2 times in a row and maybe should have beaten out Dirk last year, u cant blame everything on Nash

Posted by: Gaillour13 on February 29th, 2008 at 10:39 am

and to sub him out on big defensive possessions would be insane! keep him on the floor no matter how big the possession is cuz if they get a steal u for sure want Nash running the ball up

Posted by: Gaillour13 on February 29th, 2008 at 10:41 am

nash deserved 3 mvp titles. he should’ve won last year’s trophy,too. he may not be quick and strong enough to guard the top pgs like mr big shot, cp3, or even deron williams but he knows how to play TEAM D. he may be slow getting back on shooters but he knows when and where to set his feet to take the charge. he may be a very weak defender but he is definitely not a defensive liability. the team’s D is to blame. don’t go hating on nash for the stats, its not only the opponents’ pgs who score points you know. besides, mvp trophies are not for the BEST players, they are for the MOST VALUABLE ones. and surely, steve nash is the suns’ mvp. remember when STARbury was the suns’ pg? remember how he messed up the team WITH amare,marion,joe johnson? and come to think of it, when nash was in dallas, they were a running team. when he went to phx, they became a running team. thats the reason why they score a lot of points, and thats also the reason why their opponents are able to score a lot. both them and their opponents get more possessions. and you cant blame nash for dallas not getting to the finals with him around, the mavs team when he left was different, with different players and a different coach. so there is no comparison. also, did the mavs win a single game in the finals? and you definitely CANNOT blame him if the suns can’t get to the finals,yet. its not his fault, basketball isn’t a one-man game,you know. nice research dude, but this article is completely biased. its so biased its not even worth reading.

Posted by: dffjgnsdbn on February 29th, 2008 at 11:51 am

^^^^^

Or writing a 300-word comment on?

Posted by: Brian Spencer on February 29th, 2008 at 1:10 pm

I want to settle this whole debate right now about nash. Steve Nash deserved those two MVPs and here why. 29-53 that is the record of the suns in the 03-04 season before steve came to the team.62-20 was the following seasons wins. Steve Nash doesnt have to be a great defender to win. MVPs are a person most valuable to the (TEAM) itself not who can put up the most numbers or have the best defense. Nash made that team go up 33 wins that season. And for the defense of side i did go on to the site about 82 games and looked up the stats of the players that everyone is saying is so great they allow
Baron Davis- 22 pts 9 ast on 51%
Chris Paul- 18 pts 8 ast on 50%
Billups- 16 pts 6 ast on 45%
Kidd- 20 pts 7 ast on 46%
and for Kobe Bryant- 20 pts 4 ast 4 rebs on 45%
When everyone talks about kobe they dont ever say kobe bryant is the best defender in the league. They say he is the best offensive player in the league. Kobe should win MVP this year because of how valuable he is to his team this year. His team is ahead in the west and hes on a roll.
steve nash came to this team and made a team that was one of the worst offensive teams in the league and worst team altogether team in the league to one of the elite teams. And how can you say that Nash isnt quick on his feet. He blows by defenders with the slightest bit of ease. A head coach for a pro soccer team said he could play pro soccer without any questions. That is saying that hes is very good with his feet. I think steve nash is one of the greatest point guards in the league and if you can’t see that then you dont want to see it. It is plain and clear go NASH!

Posted by: Brandon Hampton on February 29th, 2008 at 4:39 pm

This is utterly amazing. The writer made a compelling case for examining the true picture of rather Nash is over-rated or not. It makes you go hmmmmmmmm? Now all you Nash fans and uniformed basketball enthusiast begin posting subjective and unproven statements of Nash’s abilities, for instance: “Nash makes all the players around him better and that they have career highs as a result of playing with him” NOT!!!!! I will first say that Nash is a great player! All-Star absolutely, Hall A Famer H_ _ _NO!, 2 time MVP – smells like politics to me!

If Nash makes his PLAYERS so much better, why is it when he teamed up with 2 additional All-Stars, the sixth man of the year as well as former 1st round pics Quinton Richardson and Jimmy Jackson, His assists average increased from 6.9 per game throughout his career with Dallas (we won’t even include his dismal numbers from his early years in PHO.)to 11.2 over his career at the Suns; and his scoring improved from 13.7 to 17.6 PPG. Now lets look at his impact on the other players around him.
Amare: (Missed 30 games his sophmore season prior to Nash)But in that Sophomore season averaged 20.1 ppg, over his career with Nash, he is averageing 19.7. Marion: Averaged 19.1 PPG. prior to Nash and 19.4 with. These are your 2 all-stars. Now the other players that played with him in his 1st MVP season didn’t fair so well either. Joe Johnson, who is currently an All-Star with the Hawks and has increased his scoring since not playing with Nash from 17.1 to 21.9, shows that players actually expand there game when not playing with Nash, such as the case with Dirk.

Joe averaged 16.7 the year prior to Nash and 17.1 with him. I wouldn’t call that “so much better”. That’s less that a one point differential. I wouldn’t also call Marions career high 21.8 with Nash to his previous high of 21.2 significant either. And Amare or Barbosa hadn’t even played 2 complete season prior to Nash arriving. Quinton Richardson came in averaging 17.2 the year prior to Nash and only averaged 14.9 with him. Jim Jackson came in averaging 13.3 the year prior to Nash and was only able to produce 8.8, 10.8 and 3.7 in the years with him. He definitely didn’t make him better. Now if you are wondering about Barbosa, the year prior to Nash, he averaged 7.9 and his first year with Nash averaged 7.0. Since that 1st year, he’s gone on to average 15.9 PPG. I guess you are saying “see, Nash has made him much better” Well if you consider that he averaged only 17.3 MPG in 04-05 with Nash and now he averages 30.0 MPG, his increase in point production per minutes played with Nash is only .53 from .40 again, very minimal. Note: Just as I didn’t include Nash’s rookie and first year with PHO., I eliminated Amare’s and Marion’s rookie years)

So who has benefited more when you speak of increased production? and could his increases be due more to the up tempo offensive scheme of Dantoni and the players surrounding him?. Nash definitely doesn’t affect these players ability to rebound and defend, however they do affect his assist numbers. Keep it mind that an assist requires the effort of another player, if a good passing guard isn’t surrounded by players that can finish or like the Suns, have one of the best percentages in the league from 3 point, the guards assist numbers won’t look very good. So in summary, He hasn’t made his teammates significantly better, he is surrounded with great talent and as an above average point guard his numbers reflect that. It looks to me like he benefited more from their talent. I understand intangibles like leadership, will to win, mental toughness, all have there place; but its quite arguable there are a few guards with the toughness, leadership and over all skill, including defensively that could take those group of stars and succeed and probably would not receive half the credit as Steve Nash.

Now when you look at his deficiency on defense, his inability to create scoring opportunities for his team with his defense, which in turn stops the other team from scoring, and the liability he brings in giving up points, isn’t he a bit overrated? You wish to give him all the credit for the Suns turnaround, yet no blame for his lack of defensive tenacity and will to win in an effort to take the Suns to the next level.

And another thing, he is not the most efficient shooter in the game amongst guards. The year he won his second MVP – 05/06, Tony Parker, who had 80 more FGA, shot 54% to his 51% and his own teammate Boris Diaw shot 52%. He’s never lead the league in FG% amongst guards during his MVP seasons, He hasn’t been in the top 10 in efficiency as a player, yet his 1st MVP season 2 of his teammates were, He’s never been in the top 10 in scoring guards in the league, he’s not even in the top 130 in STL’s in the league, his only claim to fame is assists, which requires the effort of another.

So if you look at his career numbers, all this talk about the best guard to play the game etc. is a bunch of hype and bull. His numbers don’t even make him Hall A Fame eligible; 14.2 PPG, 7.8 APG, 2.9 RPG, 0.8 SPG, at 48.5% from the floor and 89.6% from the line.

Here is another little tid bit, Jason Kidd actually made PHO a more complete team, check the numbers, he also led the league 3 consecutive years in assists while at PHO and although there is about a 10 game differential in wins, the Suns held there opponents to less that 94 points per game and at one point led the league at 17.1 in defensive turnovers. The bottom line is they haven’t made it to the finals!!!! and if you are the so called leader and star, then you are also subject to having your complete game critiqued.

So those of you with all your subjective and fan view points, take into consideration these FACTS! And although he is a excellent player, he has truly benefited from the leagues effort for globalization and the marketing thereof. Is he over-rated H_ _ _ YES!

P.S. For the idiot that posted Bill Russells numbers in defense of Nash, Russell was a defensive genius, he changed the outcome of games and the game itself with his INDIVIDUAL defensive performances and skill. If you are going to compare him, quite making excuses for him and try someone like Oscar, Magic or even Isiah.
-

Posted by: Sixnine on February 29th, 2008 at 5:04 pm

Hey Brandon, as far as Kobe, they don’t have to say he’s the best defender in the league, the fact that he is a 7 time all defensive 1st team member, speaks for its self. Now the MVP has changed over history, this emphasis on TEAM success begun when the journalist and broadcasters started voting, go back and look at the record when the players voted Moses Malone as the MVP.

And to give a player credit for a teams success that re-tooled and added 4 new player to the team, a full year of Amare, and a seasoned all star and veteran in Marion is ludicrous. If you are following the Suns now, maybe you can see how valuable Marion was, he has went to Miami and has continued to put up the same numbers, however look at the Suns winning percentage since he left.

Posted by: Sixnine on February 29th, 2008 at 5:15 pm

**Posted by: Sixnine on February 29th, 2008 at 5:04 pm**

another bias-blind-idiot-moron posting…

tsk tsk tsk…

Posted by: GhiaElcid on February 29th, 2008 at 8:48 pm

Listen Mike M., making comments like “If Nash had so and so and if Kobe had so and so” are irrelevant to this argument because they can never be proven one way or another. When you’re debating with someone, use facts not estimations.

Also, the whole Lakers franchise was built around Kobe Bryant and Shaq would still be in LA if Kobe wasn’t bitching. Since we’re talking about colossal players who’s very existence decide what the franchise will look like your comment is pretty void. Kobe Bryant was still in the top 3 for MVP BEFORE THEY GOT PAUL GASOL, and unlike the last few years Kobe is actually averaging some assists instead if twenty, 50 point games just during the season, not even counting the playoffs. Assist = team player, that is what the NBA looks for when deciding for MVP, players who make their teams better. If they had an award for best all around player Kobe would win it every year. But, before this year the only person Kobe Bryant was making better than they usually were was… well… Kobe fucking Bryant.
Posted by: LethaL BoSS on February 28th, 2008 at 5:13 pm

Boss that’s an interesting perspective, especially when you consider the following, The Lakers were planing to get rid of Shaq for the same reasons the Heat did, Shaq became motivated as a result of the trade, got in shape and helped the Heat win a championship, but if you look at it Mitch was correct in saying he was injury prone and nearing the end of his productive career and they needed to start rebuilding around the youth of KB. He was just 2 years off! Kobe did not ask for Shaq to be traded! He was informed by Buss that the trade was going to take place, it hadn’t been discussed with him prior. Also the only thing Kobe bitched about was Shaq coming into camp over weight and not prepared after there 3rd ring.

If assists equal team play, what does scoring and defense amount to? Name any MVP that hasn’t been a prolific scorer or a major combination defensive and offensive talent? Nash is neither. And if you want to use the concept of a player that makes his team better, how much better would the Lakers be without KB or the Cavs, without Lebron, or the Spurs without Ducan or the Bulls without Micheal, would these teams have even made the playoffs.

There are alot of factors that go into the MVP, unfortunately the criteria has changed and the teams over all success is carrying a great deal more weight, however based on what you say, if the MVP is for players that make there team better, then Kobe definitely made his team better with far less talent surrounding him.

How can the best all around player, the player with the most complete skill set, the one player talent wise that would be most highly valued and coveted by every team in the league, not be the MVP? Especially when he performs at record setting level for the season.

This is the quandary that many have in the Nash debate, he is clearly not the most talented or gifted and if you look at his over-all body of work, he’s slightly above average, so how is it that if you place great players around him, that excel in statistical categories he has no affect on, have minimal increases in the offensive categories he does affect get no credit for a teams over-all success and turnaround? Especially considering that other players were also added in the mix.

Posted by: Sixnine on March 1st, 2008 at 12:16 am

I am curious why does everyone say that Nash has the best talent around him. The only player on the team who had an all-star appearance before he came was marion. Players come to phoenix and have career bests, (Raja Bell, Eddie House, James Jones, Amare Stoudemire, Boris Diaw, Leandro Barbosa, and even Marion had a 21pts and 10rebs his best marks of his career with Nash). Yeah some guys were not quite developed such as amare and leandro but you cant say nash hasnt helped. Gm’s dont want these players cause they are all system guys with the exception of maybe amare. If GM’s wanted them KG would of been a sun already. I think the Suns problems are Mike D’antonis lack of defensive philosphy

Posted by: Andy on March 1st, 2008 at 12:30 am

He isn’t really overrated. Its just that he isnt blessed with physical attributes like the other younger guards and for his age ,he really cant be called overrated.He makes thos up by playing smart, He can also draw offensive fouls. Even with his limitations, He shows that you dont need atlethicism to dominate a game, He uses mans most lethal weapon, the brain.

For those questioning his leadership, He lead the suns to the playoffs further without amare. Those questioning his heart, remember the series against the spurs where he took a lot of beating but still fought till the end.

Posted by: playmakerzam on March 1st, 2008 at 2:53 am

pheonix was absolutely nothing without steve nash before he got there. Steve nash has built pheonix into the elite team that it is. As soon as he got there every player on the team inproved dramatically. Sure you can say that there are great players surrounding him now but only because of nash. I dont care how bad he plays defense without nash, there offense cant find a rythym. Its proven that when nash is out of the lineup, pheonix plays terrible. And also, defense is not individual, you want to blame someone blame the team as a whole. I can think of alot of players on this pheonix team that play terrible defense.

Posted by: hdh on March 1st, 2008 at 3:58 am

kobe and the lakers are no match.

Posted by: steve on March 1st, 2008 at 8:54 am

raja bell was the one guarding baron and paul when they went off

Posted by: joe on March 1st, 2008 at 1:04 pm

How many more racial stereotypes can we parrot about how white people play basketball?

There must be other white stereotypes we could come up with … how about coachable, unselfish, and fundamentally sound? Already got those? Works harder than other people? Smarter? Jeez.

Posted by: RedBarron on March 1st, 2008 at 2:01 pm

Your Dumb he can scorch any defender that faces him no one can shut him down so look at the other way you moron

Posted by: Jman on March 1st, 2008 at 4:44 pm

LOLOL….so many different opinions, so many different haters and NBA experts on here…look, everyone has their favorite player and can argue any point about Nash with examples, past games, “what ifs” and unknown BS stats that nobody can verify…but the point of the matter is this, Nash IS overrated..PERIOD…thats not my opinion, ITS A FACT…im not an expert, but i can say that i have been watching the NBA religiously since the late 70s…in my opinion, he never should have received an MVP..not 1 of them…BUT the fact is he DID get 2 MVPs in a row…we cant do anything about that now…but if the MVP was chosen like it was before, by the players, Steve Nash would not have had ANY votes for MVP unless he voted for himself…but since its chosen differently now, all we can do is bitch and complain when a mistake is made….

Steve Nash is white! so what..i dont think that makes a difference here..for the people that can actually remember when a player named Isiah Thomas saying this statement after a bad loss in the playoffs…”Larry Bird is a very, very, good basketball player,” Thomas said. ”But if he was black, he’d be just another guy.”…he got heat for it but that was said AFTER Bird had 3 straight MVPs and personally beat his team and knocked them out of the playoffs…was he right? did Bird get those because he was white? was Bird deserving of his 3 MVPs at that time? YES because he dominated the league as a total all-around player… since many people on here are saying that Nash got MVPs because hes white or this and that…everyone has their own opinions…i think we can all sit here and say that race shouldnt matter, i think it made some difference for Nash, but what matters when they decide the MVP? Stats? well statwise, Nash is a good player, i cant knock that..BUT, hes not amazing, and the facts and stats say that he DOESNT make every player around him better..look the stats up…

MVP is just what it is, Most Valuable Player, TO THE NBA…not just to his team…so in other words, the MVP is the best player in the WHOLE league..bar none..i dont think Nash proved that..he was NOT the best player neither of those years…OK, i accept all the arguments and curses i will get after this is posted but if you look at the past MVPs, only 3 players have been MVP 3 times in a row…Russell, Wilt and Bird…you can argue their numbers each one of those seasons, there were better scorers, better rebounders or whatever…but to be the best player in the league for 3 straight years is nearly impossible…Kareem, Moses Malone, Magic, Jordan and Duncan have done it 2 years in a row…so lets just look at it in this way…nobody can say that any of these players will not be in the Hall of Fame…because it was PROVEN that they made their team better and dominated the league in TOTAL..not just assists…some will argue Duncan but all-around, he dominated his years and he WILL be in the Hall of Fame…BUT…YOU JUST CANT PUT STEVE NASHS NAME IN THE SAME SENTENCE AS THOSE PLAYERS!!!!!!! i dont care what bullshit stats you bring up on here..Steve Nash has no defense, and for those arguing that he plays “team” defense, LOLOLOLOL…is that a joke? …what NBA starter doesnt play “team” defense? he cant guard younger players and he cant guard older players whether they are white or black, so you cant bring the age or race up…

and to the guy that said this “Steve Nash deserves an MVP for every season he’s played for the Suns…He still as good, if not better than players in their prime.” LMAO…i think this guy was in a mental ward in a straitjacket when he wrote that bullshit…thats the stupidest thing i have ever heard!!! Steve Nash is not even in the Top 10 right now for the MVP race…

i know this is long but someone on here said something that made me cry because i laughed so hard…i literally had to catch my breath after reading this…
“The reason why Nash’s teams allow more points is not necessarily poor defense. It’s really because he’s so good at pushing the ball down and scoring in a hurry, leaving more time on the clock for the opposing team. Thus, the opposing team will have more possessions, more shot attempts, and naturally, more points.”….
LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL….OH MY GOD….is this serious? LOLOLOL…sorry, i cant stop laughing…if he was so good at pushing the ball and scoring every time, then the other team wouldnt have more possessions anyway…they would have the same number of possessions with time not being a factor…so let me use this same statement with another sport, in fact, just pick any sport..NFL, “The reason my team allows more points is because my quarterback is SOOOO good that he scores a touchdown with the first pass every time, leaving more time on the clock for the opposing team. Thus, the opposing team will have more possessions, more touchdown attempts, and naturally, more points.” LMAO….lolol….kids!!!!

SO, to put this to rest, half the people in here are armchair experts, including myself, and we all have our stupid opinions…BUT…facts are facts and Nash is just not on the same level as some of the other players…as it showed in the All Star game, where he DIDNT start and DIDNT do squat in the game with his so-called peers…and to put the “amazing” superstar stats to rest i will say this…he DOES lead his team and the NBA in assists, good job, clap-clap-clap….in everything else, he doesnt even lead his team…steals, field goals, nothing…oh wait, he does lead the team in charge-taking and getting run over…when you cant block or stop the other gaurds, just take a charge, thats called “team” defense..LOLOL…in fact, i dont even think hes the MVP for his team…LOLOL….Amare is leading the team in points, blocks, rebounds and field goal%…so there shouldnt be any more mistakes made this year…Nash shouldnt even be on the ballot for MVP…he should be on the bench in the MVP race, right next to his pal Dirk who isnt doing anything right now either….

Finally, im sorry people, just because he is tour favorite player doesnt mean that he will be the best every year until he dies…

MVP this year will be interesting but personally, im leaning towards Kevin Garnett…ALL-AROUND, i think he has done more to put his team where they are at AND is a better rounded player than Kobe and Lebron…scoring doesnt mean everything just like assists dont mean everything…Nash is nowhere on my list of 10, maybe not even on my list of 20…Nash lovers, quit dreaming…Steve Nash will NEVER, EVER get another MVP…keep praying but it wont make a difference…his best days are behind him and even those best days were hyped up…i dont hate the guy but he is not as good as the people make him out to be…let a player SHOW how good he is by stats and championships…something that Steve Nash has neither of any more…so sorry Nash fans, no more lucky trophies or rings…its not going to happen!!!!
Face reality..

Posted by: REALESTVOICE on March 1st, 2008 at 6:12 pm

Whoever the writer of this article is, first needs to realize that MVP means Most Valuable Player for the team for that season not the best player of the league. I do agree most of this guy’s points and I do agree there are many better players (individually )than Nash. But MVP award is not for the best player as it says M.(most)V(valuable )P(player) for the success of the team. I do not have to argue with people like you whether Nash deserved the MVP award or not. We know Nash deserved it and he got he. So, no matter how you guys whine about it. It is not going to change.
And I love that fact. Good luck whinners

Posted by: Many on March 1st, 2008 at 7:57 pm

As the discussion continues, let’s keep a couple of things in mind:

1) I did say that Kobe was better than Nash during Nash’s MVP seasons. BUT, nowhere did I say that Nash didn’t deserve his MVPs. Personally, I don’t think he did, but that’s not at all what this article is about.

2) There are two central claims here completely aside from the MVP debate. The first claim of this article is that Steve Nash is overrated because his game lacks a key component, defense. Second, that a team with Steve Nash as their leader, because of this deficiency, has never and will never win an NBA title or make the NBA Finals.

Those are the issues we should discuss. So the poster above this is correct, it’s time to get over Nash’s MVPs. I have little interest in discussions in the past tense of whether or not he deserved them. I hoped to spark a discussion of whether Nash is currently an MVP caliber player, if he is overrated, and if he is capable of leading a team to the NBA Finals and beyond.

Posted by: Andrew Thell on March 1st, 2008 at 8:26 pm

I think this arguement shows both sides to it. First of, you cant win a final because of one guy’s lack of d. you win and lose with your team. every guard will make the mistake of letting the opponent get by them, its the help d and the pressure the other players on your team that separates it. If this was really true, whats wrong with baron davis or chris paul, some of the best defensive guards in the game. Neither of them have made it far in the playoffs. Nonetheless, its a team game on defense.
Another Example, is Kobe Bryant. the last few years he led his team in steals but they just couldn’t get it done as a whole. But now with the addition of Pau Gasol, and the improved Bynum, kobe and the rest of the guards can get by with some of their mistakes.
And its not Nash’s fault for their problems in the playoffs. He still averaged almost the same stats as during the regular season, so i dont see why people need to rip off him for his defense or lack thereof.
Plus, another reason why he might be recognized more now for his defense is mainly Phoenix’s style of ball. They are a run and gun team. You score, then they score. They lead the league in points per game, around 110. It would be pretty hard to average that many points, and still hold down the other team. That’s what makes Phoenix so fun to watch, is their unique style of play. However, its been proven that it does not last. Teams like San Antonio, or Detroit, are the teams that succeed in the playoffs due to their impressive defense.
Remember, defense wins championships.

Posted by: Nick Cooke on March 1st, 2008 at 9:36 pm

Response to Many on March Post.

Since when did the MVP stand for the “Most Valuable Player for the success of a team”? Again another Nash fan with erroneous info. The Most Valuable Player in the NBA, THE LEAGUE!!! If it was to the success of a team, Jordan would have never lost it, Kobe would have 3, Malone would have never won it. Quite trying to make excuses for your over-rated player and except the facts that have been presented. Those, such as Andre Thell, the author of the article, present a valid case for Mr. Nash’s excessive marketing and status. Those posting that present a supportive case to that point aren’t whining, just exposing the politics and arguing the case presented by Mr. Thell.

You sound like the kind of guy who would argue George Bush is a great President and he won all the elections fairly, The fact remains, he won, all of us except that, however the suspicions supported by previous and current data bring to question the continued status of his greatness and its validity and why people like you are blind to it; same as the case with Nash.

OPEN YOU EYES as well as learn that the MVP is not for the most valuable player on the most successful TEAM, they have the finals for that. We can debate the change in MVP voting emphasis later, the fact still remains that the author, Mr Thell, that you didn’t have the decency to mention in your post, has a valid point.

Posted by: Sixnine on March 1st, 2008 at 10:00 pm

Responding to post by GhiaElclid on

Posted by: Sixnine on March 1st, 2008 at 10:01 pm

Never in the history of the NBA’s MVP award has any one time winner been
so unjustly awarded the trophy, However, the voters out did themselves
by expanding on their unprecedented decision and awarding Nash the MVP
trophy two years in a row. Therefore, making him the most overrated MVP
winner ever and thusly the most overrated player in the league over the
past 5 years

How can this be?

In order to gain a through understanding of how Nash was elevated to
undeserved heights all you have to do is recognize the mentality of his
supporters. Following is a profile of the typical Nash supporter. The
categories alone clearly depict either their lack of basketball acumen
and/or integrity for their decisions.

Nash supporter Profile:

Defense: They totally ignore his atrocious defense.

Excuses: They make outlandish excuses for his game.

Facts: They ignore undisputable facts that expose his deficiencies.

Exaggerations*:* They overemphasis his strengths.

Credit:* *They give him excessive credit for the Suns success.

Intangibles: They give him unsubstantiated credit “he makes his
teammates better” or “he built the Suns into an elite team”

Without going into the details of each category, name one past MVP
besides Dirk whose weaknesses were so obvious…you can’t, period.

When Nash supporters concede that he is a defensive liability this alone
is enough to strip him of his trophies and give them to any of three
prior candidates who were robbed. However, when the other categories are
included Nash’s MVP awards become an absolute embarrassment to the NBA.

For example: how did or does Nash make any of his teammates better
rebounders, defenders, shooters, passers etc?… reality check: he didn’t
nor does he now!

Ok, prove the intangibles that are showered upon him, you can’t.

Come on people, it’s not like the guy is an offensive genius who takes
average players and makes them into super stars. Currently he has a
blend of new and old stars and is not getting it done. By the way, this
is the perfect combination of youth and experience so the Suns are the
best right? Shouldn’t they be with the 2 time MVP? The answer is: Hell
No! And what will the excuses be now?

Someone tried to compare his defense to Magic and Bird. Well, dear
misinformed: Magic lead the league in steals one year with 3.4 per game
and had a career average of 1.9 while standing 6’8”…he did not need
anyone to make excuses for him. Bird, was an excellent team defender and
utilized his talent on both ends of the court…no need to make excuses
for him being slow. Another, person compared his offensive stats to Paul
but conspicuously left out that Paul is #1 in steals while Nash is #167,
please do your homework.

I will not spend time weaving in statistical facts because they have
been presented and might I add disputed by unreasonable Nash supporters.
However, besides the author, if open minded, I recommend going back and
reading posts by: sixnine, obvi, wildyams and Andy. They incorporated
facts into their arguments support by basketball knowledge resulting in
compelling arguments. And, to date, I have yet to hear any Nash argument
approaching just good in reference to him not being overrated and
reasoning for being revered as the MVP 2 times.

Suggestion: if you can’t touch, taste or smell it please keep it to
yourselves because quite frankly, true basketball enthusiasts are sick
of reading weak, subjective and emotional nonsense supporting Nash.

The following are comments written by Nash supporters on this site
…laughable:

Nash has done incredible things for this team offensively, and basically
made the franchise a crapload of money, which in the real world, is
what’s it’s really all about. This alone makes up for his defensive
shortcomings to the owners. To me, since he’s been there awhile, his
teammates should understand his defensive liabilities and be ready to
help at any time.

He’s just stressed from the games and needs to just sit down and relax.

Nash and the Suns have their share of defensive problems, yes. Will it
kill them in the playoffs? We’ll see.

Nash is so far ahead of the curve offensively (18-11-4, while shooting
51% overall and44% from 3) that even poor defense at the PG spot
diminishes him only slightly. I mean, who are your good PG defenders?
Not a long list.

Nash is the most unathletic and weakest players in the league, his small
body can’t bang with the bigger guards, and his slow feet keep him from
staying with the quicks. What’s amazing is how he still runs an offense
as well as he does.

Sure Nash has bad defense but he makes it up with his offense.

We’re talking about Chris Paul being an MVP contender for playing
basically the same game as Nash, yet Paul is still behind in his assist
averages. Steve Nash is not the most athletic guy in the league and yet
he’s been able to elevate and develop people like Amare and Shawn to
All-Star status.

……..Oh My Goodness…….This is your 2 time MVP huh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Playmakerzam, hdh, Brandon Hampton, canabee, Mikey Mike and any other
Nash supporter,.. your thoughts?

Posted by: sdog on March 1st, 2008 at 11:15 pm

here we go….like i said.. everyone has their own take on the matter…well there shouldnt be no argument on what MVP means….it means MOST VALUABLE PLAYER IN THE NBA…i dont know where you get that its about the success of the team..i do see that basically every MVP ever chosen was at least in the playoffs that year but the MVP is for the regular season..if it was about success then it would be the MVP from the NBA Championship team..the post above me is correct 100%…if you wanna measure success, then you give out a Finals MVP…the Most Valuable Player in the Playoffs..now if those both go to the same player, then i can honestly say that player dominated everyone and every aspect that season…to be the MVP and the Finals MVP means that you were the best and you led your team to the championship..that player was the man…no questions…in my opinion, without getting off the main subject here, nobody should be arguing about Nash and his MVPs, he got them, period, they are on his mantle…but you cant deny the fact that many people here have too many valid points as to why he DIDNT deserve them…so, to stick to the subject, Nash is wayyyyyy overrated and he cant play defense, he will never, EVER, win a title until that major weakness gets fixed…which wont get fixed this late in his career..and for the record, im not whining at all..WE ALL KNOW HE DIDNT DESERVE IT BACK TO BACK…thats not whining…thats stating the obvious so keep loving it, then look in the mirror and slap yourself so you can wake up from your dream world…LOLOL…because the truth hurts….i hope Nash didnt get a big mantle to put those trophies on, because they will be the last awards he gets..Nuff said…

Posted by: REALESTVOICE on March 1st, 2008 at 11:51 pm

Response to HDH post:

Please go read my post from 2-29-08 at 5:04 PM and check yourself. How do you get “dramatically” out of the stats I provided you with. Can you read? can you do your own research, or do you insist on making things up? And as far as PHO being nothing before, I suggest you check out the years with Jason Kidd, whom also lead the league in assist for three years while there. The Suns were also one of the highest scoring teams in the league, the big difference, they played defense!!!

Dude, learn something PLEASE!!! And your statement that defense is not individual, how did Bill Russell win the MVP then? It’s a players individual defensive effort that can prevent the opposing team from scoring, i.e., a steal or blocked shot, it can change the momentum of the game, a steal, block shot, charge etc. I would go further into it but I don’t wish to educate you any further.

Oh, and another thing, because your teammates don’t play good defense, thats an excuse for Nash not playing. He’s suppose to be the MVP isn’t he…..lol

Posted by: Sixnine on March 2nd, 2008 at 12:45 am

I hoped to spark a discussion of whether Nash is currently an MVP caliber player, if he is overrated, and if he is capable of leading a team to the NBA Finals and beyond.

The somewhat narrow scope as stated above gives Nash supporters many more excuses although currently many experts have him rated as high as 4th. I have already seen folks bringing up his age. So, to add clarity to him being overrated comparisons should be drawn between his past MVPs and this season.

Posted by: sdog on March 2nd, 2008 at 1:13 am

So most of what you’re saying is that Nash is liable at the defensive end. Also,many players deserve the award, only one wins.Too bad for Kidd, I wanted him to win, but Nash’s wins were deserved (even though there were better choices in his second MVP season). In his first season with the Suns, he turned them from trash to contenders, hence the MVP. His next MVP was because he led a Suns team to the playoffs despite the Amare injury. So he lacks D, but if you take him out of the team, the team dies. MVP=most valuable player on the team. Though Kidd shoulda won before he did coz he’s cool haha

Posted by: jbadfksfgbskljbadfk on March 2nd, 2008 at 8:07 am

When the Suns traded Marion to the Heat for Shaq it was a clear sign of desperation to win the Championship. Marion was their most complete player,best defender, a good scorer, great rebounding small forward and fit their style of play perfectly. The Suns traded for fools gold because at this stage in “The Big Cactus’s career he is very limited. However, they have Stevie, and he can take anyone to the promise land because he “controls the game” and “will make Shaq better at this stage in his career”, right?.

Dudes, Nash has always been surrounded with the most talent in the NBA and has not done anything when it counts yet. Yeah, they have an impressive records in the past but “Defense Wins Championships” and their leader choses to to play it. I’ll address this decision later. They are currently in a serious downward spiral in the West. Every game counts especially the ones they should win but they lost to the 76ers last night. How many stars are on the 76ers? What is their record in the weak East? Why couldn’t Nash will his team to a victory? Fact: as of Friday Nash was a dismal 1 for 15 when the game is on the line…where is your exceptional shooter when it counts most?

Decision not to play D: Contrary to popular excuses Nash is a great multiple sport athlete. He is quick, he has impeccable timing, he is ambidextrous, and he is speedy to boot. To posses his skills at 6’3″ means if he put his mind and heart into defense he could be good or great at it. To a large degree all forms of defense involve pride. The defender does not want to be embarrassed in front of his family, they want to stake claim over their territory, they want to show their complete value etc. However, after 11 1/2 years Nash for to still be a horrid defender is unbelievable. And, for him to be showered with accolades when everyone knows this is mind boggling…”Overrated clap, clap, clap, clap, clap, Overrated” more claps, feel me.

Nash will go down as the only two time MVP to never win a Championship. No matter how much bullshit credit he gets from the media and supporters the two time MVP is exposed in the playoffs. If they make it to the post season this year his “brilliance” will not be witnessed again and his MVP will represent the Most Overrated Player MOP. How about that MOP, very appropriate sine Nash gets MOPped up every year.

Posted by: sdog on March 2nd, 2008 at 11:00 am

Andrew Threll
do you have a vote for the NBA MVP?
or are you just some crappy writer writing NBA articles that no one takes seriously. You should consider proof reading sir. Your article just seems like it belongs in a comment box of a real NBA writer’s column.
Why must all people think that the people that actually do the MVP voting are either retarded, or has favourites. Everyone always thinks they can do a better job. Grow up people. Don’t you think that every single MVP has been hated on. If LeBron wins it or Chris Paul wins it, some article like this will appear again.

Posted by: Jack on March 2nd, 2008 at 5:04 pm

Still going on?

It’s ridiculous how you can call Nash so great. Yeah, having 10+ assists is a good accomplishment, but the other player has to make the basket. If he was to pass to a wide open Shaq on the perimeter, and Shaq takes the shot(Never will happen but just an example), he could make it or miss it. Just because your open doesn’t mean you can always make a shot.

As far as MVPs go, I think many can agree that Nash didn’t deserve them. If any player deserved MVP on PHO, it was Marion, who was their most complete and best player, or Amare, who gave them their only post presence and led the team in points and rebounds. And these guys don’t need Nash to make them better, they’re as good with and without him. Besides there were more people valuable to their team than Nash (like Kobe and Lebron).

All Nash contributes to the team is assists. If you want to say anything about FG%, remember this. He doesn’t take many shots a game. Let me see him take as many as Kobe or Lebron and see if those % stay that way. He doesn’t have good numbers in anything else.

Also whoever said Nash should be ahead of CP3 this season because he has more assists should look at CP3s other stats. He gives more points, way more steals, and less turnovers than Nash. In fact, Nash is 2nd in the league in turnovers while Paul is 31st.

Also Jack, no other player has as big a weakness as Nash, so theu won’t be hated on as much as Nash.

Also, one weakness in the team defense can ruin you. All the teams that win championships have no major weakness in their D. And charges don’t really count as good D. Anyone can take a charge, but they don’t think about it or they don’t want to risk injury.

Nash is over-rated, no matter what people say. If you want more proof, read posts by Andrew Thell, sixnine, and REALESTVOICE.

Posted by: Marcus on March 2nd, 2008 at 9:26 pm

To all the idiots that bashed on the Spurs you need to check yourself. San Antonio owns the Suns and will continue to do so.

Nash is a terrible defender. Most of you are delusional. “oh its a team game” “His team mates make up for his bad defense”. Right thats why Phoenix still is one of the worst defensive teams in the league? They arent making up for anything.
Basketball is two games. Offense and Defense. If your MVP isnt playing on both sides then who should we go about recognizing these so called “MVPS”. And who are some of YOU to be defining MVP? Just because some writers say so doesnt mean anything.
Oh to the guy that said “Bowen is a hacker not a defender” just shows you dont really know anything about defense in general much less about the Spurs. If Bowen was such a “hacker” how is it hes in the all defensive team constantly and is regarded as a top notch defender by professionals?
Get over it.

Posted by: Trey on March 3rd, 2008 at 6:38 am

What a joke this has even come up – questioning the MVP awards of Nash. Anyone that questions his abilities probably has never touched a basketball, truly understands the ‘game’ or watched him play night in and night out. This happens all the time, jokers sitting behind a desk with their Starbucks and bagel in hand attempting to weigh in on something they know nothing about – but hey, I guess that’s professional sports and their fans…
Speaking of ‘d’ – anyone remember a 3 time MVP? last name Bird I think? he was a terrible one on one defensive player but defense is a TEAM effort. His teammates helped out and adjusted.

anyways, Steve certainly deserved the accolades he received and thensome!

Posted by: Joejacobi on March 3rd, 2008 at 9:32 am

ok…Joejacobi…..to talk about Nash and how he deserved his MVPs is one thing, everyone has their own opinions, but if you are gonna bring up other players, then do your research first…you really screwed yourself by bringing up Larry Bird..was he a great one on one defender? Not really…terrible? LOLOLOL…i dont think so…just so you know, you dont even have to look up his stats, just grab your bagel and your coffee and read the following: All Defensive Second team in 82′, 83′, and 84′…hmmmm… terrible, just terrible….but his team helped him make All Defensive Team….yeah right…also, while we are on the subject, Nash has a little over 600 steals as of last year..TOTAL CAREER STEALS… averaging .8 steals per game…and hes a guard, technically thats part of his job isnt it? LOL….NOT…Larry Bird was in the top ten in the NBA in steals in 81′, 84′ and 86′…as a forward..but wait, steals dont really count as defense right? or do they? everyone knows Bird left the NBA because his body couldnt take it anymore, with his worst years being his last couple of years…well in his last and final year, he had 2 bad knees, he had a back that was in pieces, AND he was still white (for the haters out there) BUT he still averaged .9 steals per game and he couldnt even run down the court…Nash averaged 1.0 steals per game at his PEAK….his best years….SO…please, please, PLEASE, dont even begin to try and defend Nash by comparing him to a legend…Bird totally deserved those MVPs, and yes, his team was amazing those years but Bird was the man in EVERYTHING..he didnt have one category that you could pick out as being horrible, not one…his team was an amazing defensive team but that doesnt mean he was a terrible one on one defender…with Nash its OBVIOUS his defense is not horrible, its totally non-existent…so even at my age (33), i can honestly say i cant play like Nash can or at any Pro level at all, but i have played the game and played on teams and had my share of great moments in my past where my team was successful and years when my team sucked, (high school and college level), and i never claimed to be an expert but i have enough experience and knowledge to know a fault when i see one….so the point here is still this: Nash is STILL overrated, he STILL didnt deserve his back to backs, and he STILL cant play any efense…and no i didnt spell that word wrong, i didnt use the letter “d” because thats what Nash plays, EFENSE, without the “D”….he doesnt even know what “D” is…he doesnt deserve jack…he hands out assists…thats it…and if you wanna go farther, Stockton led the NBA for 9 straight years, made the All Defensive team 5 times, and led the league in steals a couple of years too, he scored a little less than Nash but he had a great field goal percentage, AND he had Karl Malone to feed the assists to….SO….was he ever even considered for an MVP? NEVER….and i dont think he did enough to get an MVP so how can Nash, who does less than Stockton did, get 2 MVPs back to back…..BULLSHIT….thats what its called…so whos the joker? the joke was on all of us when more deserving players sat and watched while Nash took pics with his trophies….what a joke…Nuff said….

Posted by: REALESTVOICE on March 3rd, 2008 at 2:10 pm

Thanks REALESTVOICE. I was at a loss when I saw him bring up Bird, I didn’t even know where to start on that one. I think you pretty much nailed it though.

Posted by: Andrew Thell on March 3rd, 2008 at 2:26 pm

You say Nash is a defensive liability? Well, then, tell what point guard you would get to replace him, other than say, Chris Paul? That’s right, nobody. Nobody has all the combined skills Nash has. Chris Paul would be the only one close. Nash’s numbers: 51% FG%, 46% 3FG%, 90% FT%, 17.5 PPG, and 11.5 APG. He’s a true point guard, as he passes first and shoots last. And what’s the most important thing about Nash? He’s cluth. When the game’s on the line, Nash wants and gets the ball because he’s the best decision-maker and most accurate when the game’s on the line, and everyone on the Suns knows it. They look for Nash in these situations. Defensively, are you over-looking that Nash takes a ton of charges? And you will rarely see Nash get schooled. Size-wise, sure, he’s fairly small, so a big guy can dunk on him. But that’s about it. If you say guards against him score alot, that’s because Nash gets screened away from his defender most of the time, allowing him to drive or shoot. And many times, Nash is covering someone other than the point guard. Just watching Nash makes you realize he’s the best in the business.

Posted by: DGore on March 3rd, 2008 at 3:21 pm

Nash the best? I can name 4 PGs I would take ahead of Nash offensively. And thats CP3, Deron Williams,Tony Parker, and BD(They play better D than Nash, and are better offensively). Nash’s D is what costs them games in the playoffs. Remember last year when Nash got burned by Tony Parker so much, that they had to move Marion to cover Parker? Like some people have said before, one major hole in a defense can cost you in big games.

I would also like to say to those people that say the Suns would’ve beat the Spurs if Nash wasn’t out the last 2 minutes of game 1 or if Amare and Bell wasn’t suspended, what makes you think that? You have no idea what would’ve happened, or what adjustments could’ve been made.

Posted by: Marcus on March 3rd, 2008 at 3:45 pm

C’mon Joejacobi, As a former player myself, all the way to the professional level internationally, you shouldn’t assume that people who present an argument that Nash is over-rated haven’t played the game and therefore don’t have knowledge of the game. After reading your post, I quickly came to the conclusion that although you are a player, your quality and level of play is greatly suspect.

To make additional excuses for Nash by trying to link his deficiencies with the truly great Larry Bird is laughable. And your perspective that defense is a team effort, again, as an excuse for Nash’s poor play in that category, really exposes your weak game. There are team components to both sides of the court, that’s obvious, but for you to ignore the significant importance of a players individual defensive effort and skill and how it can impact the game on the defensive and offensive end, well – I suggest you go back to basketball 101.

What other’s such as Andrew Thell, Sdog, Marcus, Trey and realestvoice have to say has validity. For example, If enough media pundents began to say CP3 is the best guard in the game today, is completely responsible for the Hornets turnaround and may be the greatest guard of all time, people would begin to evaluate the credibility of such comments; is it true? is he the real deal? or are the claims over exaggerated and over-rated hype, such is the case with Nash. What doesn’t bode well for Mr. Nash, whom I’ve given credit for the high quality of skills that he does possess, is the incredible amount of data and evidence that bring to question the accolades placed upon him.

It’s no fault of Steve Nash, he didn’t lobby for the position, he himself didn’t believe he was the MVP. From what I read and understand, he’s a great teammate and person. The question is, is he over-rated? and given the facts of basketball, removal of all the excuses, with the addition of our understanding of the importance and role of a point guard, he falls substantially short of a 2 time MVP and mentioning him in the same breath as M.J. and Bird is an embarrassment to the NBA.

Now if you are a critical thinker like many of the posters on here, the question remains is why does the media and league perpetrate this fallacy? Why is he never called out for his deficiencies? Now, since the Marion trade, you are beginning to see that more than Steve Nash was responsible for the Suns success.

Oh, for those of you who spout his value off the floor, Isn’t he the only true point guard on the team? Barbosa is a true 2 guard and there is definitely no one on the Suns bench with his offensive point guard skills, so it would make sense that they wouldn’t be as effective without their floor leader, but if I replaced that floor general with another All-Star guard, I would wager that the Suns would be just as good offensively and absolutely better defensively. Now although this is subjective and I’m not a fan of that, I can take how the Suns played with Jason Kidd as the point. Do the research for yourself, I will just leave you with this, Kidd also leads the league in assist for 3 consecutive seasons with the fast pace game of the Suns. Now when you add his scoring, rebounds and steals, he made the Suns a much more balanced team.

Also, if you “NASHANATICS” keep refusing to recognize the impact of the other players that were acquired and played with Nash during the great turnaround season of 04/05, here’s another tid bit. Nash’s assists totals were very heavily weighted toward made 3 pointers. It’s the category he received the most assists and there was a differential of more than 60 assists from the 2nd closest category. Now if he didn’t have great 3 point shooters, his assists numbers would have been quite different. Take a look at what some others accomplished that season:

Shawn Marion:

- Only player in NBA ranked in top 25 in points, rebounding, steals, blocks and minutes. Was only the second player in NBA history (David Robinson 1991-92) to rank in the top five in rebounding and steals since the league starting tracking steals in 1973.
- Second in NBA in double-doubles with career-high 53.
- Grabbed 10 or more rebounds 53 times, including a career-high 20 boards versus Boston on February 27 in overtime.
- Grabbed his 4,000th rebound at Memphis to become only the second player in franchise history to achieve that feat (Alvan Adams).

Quentin Richardson:

- Tied for NBA lead with 226 3-point field goals made with Philadelphia’s Kyle Korver, breaking Dan Majerle’s franchise-high mark of 199 (1994-95).
- First Sun ever to win Foot Locker Three-Point Shootout during 2005 All-Star Weekend in Denver by making his final nine three-point field goal attempts to defeat Korver and Denver’s Voshon Lenard in the final round.
- Led team with three game-winning shots, Dec. 8 at Lakers, Dec. 20 at Denver, and Feb. 8 at Sacramento.
- Set franchise record with nine treys at New Orleans on Dec. 29 and grabbed 11 boards, making the most 3-pointers ever in NBA history for a player with 10 or more rebounds in a game.

Now we don’t even need to deal with Amare, however you Nashanatics need to distinguish the categories that Nash realistically have an effect on and also understand that he was not the only reason for their success.

Now without emotion, subjective banter and unsubstantiated evidence, tell us how he isn’t over-rated and deserves to be called the best guard in the game today?

Posted by: Sixnine on March 3rd, 2008 at 4:08 pm

REALESTVOICE,
I’m glad my name is not Joejacobi! Don’t look for a reply because you beat the excuses out of him.

Sidebar: I have a good idea why you brought up Larry’s race for the haters. However, your piece would have been even more powerful without it. Many on here bring up race some more blatant than others and each time I read posts including race it negatively impacts their argument from my vantage point.

No one talked about how fast and quick Danny Ainge was on a regular basis while in the NBA. However, if you go back and check NBA Classics between Boston and the Bulls you’ll be surprised how many times Danny blew past Jordan without the luxury of a pick, get my point? Stereotypes, cause folks like JJ to make foolish comparisons and I understand why you exposed his underling intent and those narrow minded.

Nash has no competition for the Most Overrated Player (MOP) award….AGAIN!

Posted by: sdog on March 3rd, 2008 at 5:04 pm

Wow, amazing how what simple statement(s) you make get blown out of proportion on the net! or twisted for that matter. C’mon, we all now Larry was a terrible one on one defender – everyone knows that – however, he and his team adjusted to his abilities (and the Teams) and it worked for them. There were some great defenders on those great Celtic teams. Larry had Parish and KM behind him when he cheated defensively.
As far as a comment made about Stockton winning MVP – if he played today, then yes he would win (in my book) – UNFORTUNATELY he played the same time as a few of the 50 greatest of all time…Jordan (5 times), David Robinson, his teammate Karl Malone (2 times).
It’s amazing when you bring up Larry people start playing the race card or bringing it up – get a life…he was great, deserved his accolades AS has Nash.
Remember, it’s coaches and NBA league officials that vote for MVP – they are all VERY close to the game and UNDERSTAND the game…see them play nightly…I’m sure they get it right…

sdog, not sure what your talking about ‘Sterotypes’ – not once did I mention anything about sterotypes and quickness of white guys??? you ok??? too much starbucks?

Sixnine, you a little insecure? why don’t you post your scoring average and how many steals you had while playing ball?

Do I think Nash deserves MVP this year – no. He’s not playing consistently at the level he was 2-3 years ago.

Posted by: Joejacobi on March 3rd, 2008 at 6:50 pm

“Remember, it’s coaches and NBA league officials that vote for MVP – they are all VERY close to the game and UNDERSTAND the game…see them play nightly…I’m sure they get it right…”

Since 1980 the NBA MVP has been decided by a panel of sportswriters and broadcasters. 125 members of the media get to vote. Not coaches or league officials.

Posted by: Andrew Thell on March 3rd, 2008 at 8:08 pm

Sorry, but you get the idea – many of them played professional ball or have been around it for many, many years. I’m sure they have a better idea of MVP than we do as fans. Not saying all do, but most.

Posted by: Joejacobi on March 3rd, 2008 at 9:59 pm

Joe, Joe, Joe, damn my mis-informed, blind and don’t know when you’ve been utterly destroyed poster. You stepped out on that ledge insinuating that posters in agreement with the author, Mr. Thell, were coffee drinking, couch potato basketball wannabe’s and you, with your so called basketball experience, were somehow superior in your evaluation and support of Mr. Nash.

Well, once again, you have been proven to have no credibility in your stance other than to be apart of the voting status quo. You have no argument to support your position; Hell, you don’t even know who votes for the MVP. Now that’s ashame!!!!!!!! You must be President of the Nashanatics fan club….lol

FYI:

Nash – 07/08 – 17.5 PPG, 11.5 APG, 34.7 MPG, FG% 50.9, FT% 89.5, 3P% 46.0, .07 SPG, 3.4 RPG (No Chance for an MVP Season but has an insurmountable lead for the MOP Award)

Nash – 04/05 – 15.5 PPG, 11.5 APG, 34.3 MPG, FG% 50.2, FT% 88.7, 3P% 43.1, 1.0 SPG, 3.3 RPG (1st. MVP Season)

Nash – 05/06 – 18.8 PPG, 10.5 APG, 35.4 MPG, FG% 51.2, FT% 92.1, 3P% 43.9, .08 SPG, 4.2 RPG (2nd MVP Season)

Now once again, you have been exposed. Nash is actually performing at the same level if not better than his MVP seasons, so if you think he doesn’t deserve one this year, how the hell did he in the years previous.

One thing I can say, Nash is consistant. Consistently given credit when its not due, consistenly over hyped and consistently over-rated!!!!!!!!!!!

Posted by: Sixnine on March 3rd, 2008 at 10:47 pm

Now regarding your comments about the voters. Well there was one ex player that certainly didn’t agree with the status quo, and he happened to be a pretty good player and had a pretty good teammate as well. Hi name is Scottie Pippen, remember him? One of the 50 greatest players, 6 time NBA champ and teammate of M.J. He flat out said Nash didn’t deserve his 2nd MVP award. Have you seen him on any major NBA broadcast lately? get my point!

Marketing and the faces that represent the NBA are very important to the powers that be. If you don’t think there are politics in these arenas, you are very naive. I’m no conspiracy theorist or anything like that, I know he a very good talent, but he not a 2 time MVP player, especially when you consider the competition.

Posted by: Sixnine on March 3rd, 2008 at 10:59 pm

ah, six, six, six…your little stats rundown proves nothing but other than the fact you can copy and paste very well…good job! I don’t believe stats alone are what get you the award – maybe in your little mind they do? Anyways, this year Nash hasn’t finished games like he has in the past, his team has not played as well (adjustment period with Shaq)- he’s putting up great numbers but so is Al Jefferson…does he deserve the award? point is, stats prove little unless you look at everything…

When did I say I have ‘so called basketball experience’??? once again, too much Starbucks six…I may, I may not…who cares?

One thing that always comes up in the voting is the definition of an MVP. Best player hands down? or great player that made his Team the best it could be while helping them win…we’ll never know which one because everyone has a different take on MVP.

Sure, the NBA is a huge corporation – main focus is to make money by any means possible (not quite but not far off) So of course, politics plays a huge factor in all pro sports. I don’t think it really affects the voting though-then again who knows? Andres Thell, do you get a vote? did you get paid for your vote?

My opinion is Nash deserved the MVP’s – he earned them just as much as Dirk did last year and all the other past winners. Everyone has an opinion…even Scottie Pippen.

Posted by: Joejacobi on March 4th, 2008 at 1:15 am

yeah boy his so sweet he makes me an anthill yeaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

Posted by: Anonymous on March 4th, 2008 at 5:01 am

the author is a absolute moron

Posted by: takashi on March 4th, 2008 at 9:37 am

Joejacobi,
Odor….bet the first thought in your mind was a bad odor when odor can be associated with a good odor as well.

Ok, go back and re-read what I wrote and if you are still unable to connect the dots the point I was making is this: Stereo types prevent folks from giving credit where credit is due. The example I used was Danny Ainge (a “slow “ white guy) left Jordan (a “fast” black guy) holding his jock several times in one game but it was overlooked because some folks can’t see past their perceptions. Anyway, you’ve got the wrong guy; my post was anti bringing up race or playing the race card.

JJ take a look around, where are your boyz now? Apparently, they have read the facts and challenges from posters on here and are in dimly lit rooms licking their wounds. Based on all of your posts it’s time way past the time for you to do likewise. To date no Nashanatic has been able to develop a credible argument especially you supporting why Nash is not overrated.

Yes, I absolutely agree that Larry deserved every MVP and accolade bestowed upon him! In fact, I understand his phenomenal play more than you because I recognized his defense and you don’t. And, to continue to make a comparison between Larry Legend and Nash is insane. Therefore, I will read and laugh at your posts but decline to respond…next!

Posted by: sdog on March 4th, 2008 at 10:45 am

LOLOL…first of all i would like to apologize for bringing the race card in….i didnt mean it in a bad way but Bird has been bashed for years as being favored because he was white…thats the reason i linked it with him directly…it wasnt a bash in any way and i am in no way favoring white, black or anything…i have studied and worshipped basketball all my life and i look at every player as the same…a great player is great regardless…sorry but i had to get that out of the way before someone thought i was biased…

anyways, as far as PGs right now i would choose before Nash…probably 5 or 6 i would choose for my team before Nash..im not going to name them because it would totally take this discussion into discussing everyone else…but you should understand my point..Nash plays in a certain way, he has his own style, and it compliments the Suns…period…every point guard is supposed to make the team run correctly, to his style, and most teams playbooks revolve around the PG to start and/or finish the play…not many teams can play the run and gun offense of the Suns…so if i bought a team and started from scratch, i would choose a new up and coming PG because he can be molded and he can adapt to the players i put around him…Nash will not change, the other players have to change and in the Suns case, it has worked, in a way…if you have followed his career you can see that his numbers, style, and all around performances have been pretty much the same since he started in the NBA…everyone improves but if he would not have gone to the Suns, i honestly dont know how many other teams his style would have worked with…his defense is just so horrible that i dont know how many teams could have been able to pick up the slack…seriously…he takes charges, YES, he gets screened, YES, but he plays against the same players CP3 and Parker and every other PG plays against…and some are physically smaller than him…so if you have the same body, position and you play the same players as everyone else does, then as a superstar and 2time MVP, you should be considered above the rest in your position…so he takes a charge, ok, ball changes hands, BUT another PG with some balls would jump, swat, or try to block the charging opponent…NBA players dont go into a game thinking “this guy is going to charge, let me take it” most NBA players would think of any other way to get the ball besides taking a charge…it is a rule in playing ball but it should be a last option when there are other ways to deal with the situation…i do believe he is bullied sometimes BUT if a bully takes your lunch money today, then again tomorrow, guess what? he knows he can get it again next week and for the rest of your life until you stand up to him….most players know that Nash can physically be screened away with not too much effort…and if you did your reseaerch you would see that Nash does get burned alot, ALOT!!!!! rookies burn by him all the time…why? because his defense has been exposed for years and coaches and other players that have been around for a while already know this (Parker burning him for 48 minutes at a time is a great example)…what makes a great player and an MVP is the respect and fear of the other players…do you think that if your team is down by 1 with seconds left that the coach is going to bring you into the huddle and say “watch Nash, if he gets the ball we are done!!!” HELL NO…the coach says “watch Amare, watch Marion (before the trade) and watch everyone else except for Nash” i dont think players fear Nash and i dont think hes the “CLUTCH” person you think he is….(thats for DGore) and YES Nash gets schooled alot, DAILY, and those bullshit excuses about screening and size dont make a difference… he gets schooled because he doesnt play defense…PERIOD…

and JJ, i will accept your opinion that Nash deserved his MVPs but in my opinion, your opinion is wrong…LOLOL…like saying Dirk deserved it last year…WRONG…but thats another column…and i give you 1 thing…MVP means different things to different people, and i have been around a while and yes i do know 2 people, sportswriters with the media, that do have a vote for the MVP…personally i dont, but from what they have told me about the choices every year is that politics have more to do with it than most people think…Kobe has so many haters that its totally out of hand and nobody even wants him as MVP, Lebron is still considered “too young” to get it by many people, so who does that leave? the nice guy who will literally be the face of the NBA for the next year until someone else is chosen….thats how i see it…to me, the MVP is the BEST player in the NBA, and as the best player he SHOULD have led his team to some kind of success…most MVPs did all that, some didnt..the Suns were successful, but Nash didnt dominate ANYONE in the league for either of those years…maybe top 3 or top 5 but since position doesnt matter in the MVP race, being the best point guard (although he wasnt) wouldnt necessarily mean that you were the MVP…

oh and 1 more thing that i just couldnt leave alone…”Larry had Parish and KM behind him when he cheated defensively.” i honestly dont know what to say about this statement…cheated is a very ugly word, you could have used “slacked”, “slipped”, or maybe even “ignored playing defense” but cheated? c’mon…that whole team was defense, but the team was also offense with 4 out of the 5 starters being on the All Defensive team at one time and ALL 5 STARTERS averaging in double figures in scoring…so i think they all backed each other up when the other player “cheated” on defense…

and sdog, i have something for you too….much props and respect go to you for actually seeing something i saw and got laughed at for bringing up various times to my fellow fans…Ainge use to blow by Jordan alot in those years, and not many people can remember that or just overlook it since MJ is involved and he NEVER got burned….lolol….respect…

and my vote for MOP also goes to Nash…so far hes in the lead….LOL…

Posted by: REALESTVOICE on March 4th, 2008 at 11:13 am

wow, lots to say don’t you? wow, I’m impressed you “have studied and worshiped basketball your whole life” – very impressive. So I’m assuming that makes your opinion matter more than the other posted opinions here? It’s truly amazes me that you can continue to convince yourself (and attempt at others) that Nash was not deserving and that it’s been a political conspiracy – have you named it yet? “Nashgate”?
Keep trying to tell yourself that he was not deserving, keep trying to convince yourself, say it a few hundred times before falling asleep at night (like counting sheep) and maybe one morning when you wake up you’ll actually believe it!

As far as my statement about ‘cheating’ on ‘d’:
IF you were ever a player then YOU would know that it’s a common term used in basketball – if you actually watch a game on TV you’ll probably hear it a few times by the color commentator – “slacked” “slipped” or “ignored playing defense” – just goes to show me (and others here) that you know absolutely nothing but how to copy and paste once again…lol

Here’s a couple ‘cheated’ terms used:

- Larry CHEATED by going underneath the screen
- Larry CHEATED by overplaying the passing lane

What you won’t hear:

- Larry “SLACKED” by going underneath the screen
- Larry “ignored playing defense” by overplaying the passing lane

Hopefully you get the point…lol…maybe jump on the TV tonight and watch a game – maybe you can pick up some terms to throw around here on your next post! peace…

OH! and Danny Ainge was a great athlete! he was fast! so of course he could blow by opponents – Just how good an athlete? the guy played baseball for the Jays before joining the league. I saw him play bitd when I was a young lad. I also think he was an All American football star in high school as well…

all the best, no hard feelings my basketball brothers…everyone has an opinion.

Posted by: Joejacobi on March 4th, 2008 at 7:04 pm

LOLOL….nice, very nice that you actually read my post and all that you could pick apart from it was that some commentator used the word “cheat”…lolol…again, no facts..and as far as your terms, i have never heard “Larry CHEATED by going underneath the screen” or “Larry CHEATED by overplaying the passing lane” so maybe you heard that in your imaginary game in your mind while you were color commentating in your dreams…..LOL…and most people on here are not commentators so the term “cheated” and Larry Bird just dont go together and have never been used together, so get your facts straight before you keep writing bullshit on here…so, since you “tried” to make yourself feel better after yet another post making you feel stupid, let me give you some REAL examples of some real often used nightly basketball quotes…let me enlighten you on some of the terms i hear every Suns game..”WOW!!! Nash was burned on that one!!” “He drove by Nash like he was standing still! AGAIN…” “WHOA, did you see that? Nash didnt even see him coming. That ball was swatted into the stands!!!” “Nash shouldnt have taken that shot, he has been off all night” and the one that is most often heard if the game is close…”(insert any bench players name here) is coming in for Nash right now with under a minute left”…now those are real terms and quotes from actual NBA games…so go on TV and wait for those…im sure they will be said at some point in the game…you shouldnt have to wait too long…i did play for a long time and i guess i never heard “cheated” because i never did that…i guess i should have watched some Suns games so i could catch up on my “no defense” terms…LOL

as far as me saying my opinion is worth more than yours, well, so far it is…look at your posts and look at mine…you dont have 1 supporter on here, not even 1 single supporter of your bullshit posts with wannabee made up facts…and you can ask around, i dont copy and paste…everything i write is original and actually has some facts behind it..”Larry CHEATED by going underneath the screen”? LOLOL…i dont use basketball terms and just replace Nashs name with Larry Bird …nice but it doesnt work that way….again, trying to bring up a legitimate MVPs faults to take the attention off Nash will not work…im not the only 1 that has burned you on here…everyone has…i dont need to “convince” anyone here of anything…they all know that Nash didnt deserve jack…especially those MVPs…Dirk had a better argument for winning the MVP and im sure we can all argue that also…so dont try and come back after getting stitches for your wounds and expose me because i dont know the “correct” basketball term for pulling a Steve Nash…”cheated” on defense….ok, ill keep that in mind..thanks for the information…it really did make me feel better…LOL

as far as Nashgate goes, LOL, im glad you came up with that term because his MVP seasons have more flaws in them than you weak posts…the reason Nash himself said that he didnt deserve his MVP awards is because he really didnt…he knows he cant play defense…you know it…everyone here knows it…even his fans admit it..except for you, you still believe in your “brain” (and i use that term very lightly) that Nash is somehow deserving of his 2 MVPs…there have only been 2 other point guards to win MVP and that was Bob Cousy, The big “O” (Oscar Robertson), and Magic Johnson…can anyone here, ANYONE, put STEVE NASHs in the same sentence with these other names? they are LEGENDS…dominating players…names that are known worldwide..who the hell is Steve Nash? cmon now…
get over it…you have been burned, ridiculed, and blocked on here almost as much as Nash has on the court…just give up…youre the only one left fighting for a lost cause..bringing Bird up just isnt going to cut it…and honestly, since you brought him up, i think Bird could probably outshoot Steve Nash today…right now…and i know Nash is a passer but since you have more knowledge than i do about this, then you should know that Bird was one of the best passing forwards in the game, ever, some of his passes Nash could never, ever, duplicate because Nash doesnt have the awareness, skill, or court sense that Bird had…in fact, if Bird wanted to play point, he probably could…and better than Nash…and he would have been MVP without politics…Nash is a good player, YES, i said it…he is even great sometimes but passing to another person and hoping he makes the shot does not make an MVP…it doesnt even make a good player…he has some skills but his weaknesses are far too great to ignore…you just dont feel like giving in…you dont want to see the truth even when its daylight and you have a flashlight…you cant see it…so its useless for me to keep explaining it to you…i give up…all i can say is, you want to know if Nash deserved his MVPs, then just watch some games on TV, or better yet, watch some Suns games from whatever year you want…or Dallas games, he hasnt played defense since he started, it doesnt matter what year you choose….maybe after taking your own advice and watching some games, you might see that Nash is a good player, but nothing Hall of Fame worthy, nothing to rank him in the top 50, and definitely not a player worthy of 2 MVPs….

by the way, all the best, no hard feelings my basketball brothers…everyone has an opinion.

Posted by: REALESTVOICE on March 4th, 2008 at 11:56 pm

“I’m glad my name is not Joejacobi! Don’t look for a reply because you beat the excuses out of him.”

sdog? hello? weeping I’m guessing in your own “dimly lit room”…

Posted by: Joejacobi on March 5th, 2008 at 12:11 am

Wow, you have a ton of time on your hands to continue to defend your pointless argument – go ahead, continue to attempt to convince yourself and the few others (Six, sdog etc.) that Nash was undeserving of the MVP 2 consecutive years. I’m sure all the Voters got it wrong, I’m sure the many NBA that agreed he was deserving were all misquoted. OH WAIT! It was the great political conspiracy! C’mon now…give it up!
Wow, your getting personal aren’t you? I can see you sitting behind your desk – typing away, almost smashing the keyboard – your lame attempt to throw in a little ‘LOL’ here and there to make it LOOK like your having a good time (covering your anger and frustration) reposting your silly little argument. Funny to me, making you look a dork…don’t even bother reposting another attempt at arguing you points – they’re pointless…plain and simple.
Why the hate on Steve Nash? Did you lose a bet on a game against the Sun’s one time? Or who would win MVP one of those years? Is he your brother, the one that overshadowed you and you’re jealous of his accomplishments? Because he’s Canadian? What is it? You know what. I don’t need to know, keep that embarrassment to yourself – I understand.
I’m not sure why I continue to come back to this? I really don’t need to defend his accomplishments, his WELL DESERVING accomplishments. A large, well educated, well informed, close to the game Panel voted for Nash – therefore your opinion, my opinion really doesn’t matter anymore. I just happen to agree with the majority that voted FOR HIM.

I will once again mentioned the term ‘cheated’ on defense – anyone that has played the game will understand the term – no need to backtrack to my last post for the examples – just go back and study them, hopefully they will sink in (I doubt it but its worth a try) – of course you did “play professionally” (whatever) so you should know all terms. Joker.

Wow, BIRD – in my book – probably the greatest next to Jordan – maybe better in terms of basketball IQ and sheer will. I’ll never knock him down, but I defend my statement that he was not a great one on one defender (as will many that saw him play or played against him etc.).
WOW! ‘shoot’ yourself in the foot you dork! You are basically saying that NASH is not a good shooter but only a decent ‘passer’ – WOW! YOU are the ‘copy and paste guy’ so why don’t you go to NBA.com where you spend most of your time (copying and pasting) and look at his stats (Mr stats guy). I’m sure you’ll notice that he is 3rd on the list for ALL TIME in freethrow percentage, 6th ALL TIME in 3pt percentage (taking over 1000 more attempts than the next closest guy AHEAD of him!) and a career .485 FG % shooter – which is if you don’t know is pretty darn good – especially for a guard, a PG because if you know the game (like you say you do…lol) than the PG gets stuck taking bad shots late in the clock quite often AND mostly shoots from outside the key unlike most FG leaders in history. SO, your statements are once again worthless – absolutely insane…are you ok? Oh, as far as assists goes – Nash is only 18th on the list and will probably be close to top 10 by the end of this year and top 5 by the end of his career…certainly not worthy of any accolades I’m sure (you lame dork).

Ok, throw some more lame comebacks – get mad, kick your dog, throw your cat – do whatever you do – OR better yet! Stop posting because you’ve been shot down so-oooo many times it’s getting boring for me.

Have fun, play nice and enjoy the rest of the season – done.

Posted by: Joejacobi on March 5th, 2008 at 11:43 am

Just to bring up some more points to counter act your pointless arguments and expose your lack of knowledge:

The greats you mentioned to be put in the same sentence as Nash. Magic and Cousy for example…very , very briefly.
Magic had HALL OF FAMERS (in their prime!!!) on his team as did Cousy – to name a few:
Kareem, Worthy, Russell, Tommy H, Havlicek, K.C Jones…of course they won! point is, Nash has had decent players, potential all stars at his side but not the likes of the caliber above. Therefore, to get what he has gotten out of his team(s) is pretty amazing and to still achieve what he has achieved is worthy of ALL accolades he has received.

just thought I’d expose more of your insane, silly points made in your last post…your exposed, you are weak, give up…

Posted by: Joejacobi on March 5th, 2008 at 12:14 pm

lolol…and that was real…laughing out loud…you are a joke, in all the sense..like i said, you are the one that keeps getting up after you have been punched down and everyone has walked by has kicked dirt on you..like i said before, dont get mad because you are lonely, dont get mad because you are the only dumbass dork left on here trying to defend a lost cause, dont get mad because once again i called you out and all your bullshit terms didnt work…i never said i played professional, but i guess you cant read either, so go get your elementary school daughter so she can read my posts back to you..not once did i say i played professional…keep looking honey, didnt find it did u? sorry once again, but dont get up just stay down there on your knees while i finish…

Oh and you said “I’m sure the many NBA that agreed he was deserving were all misquoted.” ummmm, maybe im wrong here but who are you talking about? NBA who? announcers? ballboys? the guy that cleans the stands? hot dog guy? NBA who? because i know you are not talking about NBA players and Coaches, who for some odd reason have not commented on those 2 seasons. Most have kept their mouth shut and maybe gave the “yeah congrats” under their breathe while taking a piss in the locker room…i dont know how many times i have to repeat this, im honestly tired of it, NOBODY supports you…NOBODY…you know nothing of what you are talking about and have no points except the small little made-up points that you keep writing about…

and im angry? im smashing my keyboard? i LOOK like im having a good time….I AM…you are the one thats angry, you are so angry that it took you 3 posts to respond back…LOL…you probably wrote one, then forgot something, so you wrote again, oh wait you forgot to look up stats, then you did some research and wrote another post….LOLOLOL…who looks like the dork?

Im not hating on Nash, thats what you call it because you are upset…its ok…i dont call it hating, i call it stating the facts…i call it EXPOSING someone who needed exposing and as you can see, im not the only one who sees it…the people on here see it, your family sees it, Nash sees it and now, the Suns fans see it…just watch a Suns home game and you will hear all the booooooos in the crowd…but wait, they just won a game….its a celebration!!!! thank you Steve N—ooooo im sorry, he didnt contribute that game, but he had 19 points!!! HE WAS AMAZING THAT NIGHT!!! he had his usual 2-TIME MVP night…19 points on amazing, perfect, 6 of 12 shooting, (he must have gone over to your house and practiced with you on how to bring his average up) LOL…he was 1 for 4 from 3-point land….damn, he has been practicing, that 25% from the arc, thats a near perfect game…but im not finished, i have to say that he outdid himself in his specialty category, the category that he leads the league in…Nash had a stellar MVP worthy night dishing out 4 huge assists, leading the, oooo wait, sorry, he didnt lead the team in anything because Hill AND Barbosa both had 4 assists too….hmmm…thats odd…maybe Nash had an off night? LOL

Well the night seemed normal because the person he was guarding, Brandon Roy most of the time, had 25 points, 5 rebounds and 4 assists…OK, i hear what you are saying, Roy is a shooting guard, maybe Nash was guarding Steve Blake…wrong, Bell was sticking Blake, and Blake didnt do anything, the only person that got lit up was Nash, once again, in normal MVP fashion…so do i have to keep convincing people? no…Nash convinces everyone himself by playing like a small time average NBA guard, and you look up to him and defend him so if he is average then u must be looking up from the weeds under a pile of dog shit!!!! you still have NO facts except trying to bring in stats that sixnine brought up days ago, those stats dont help you, they hurt you…those are bullshit stats.. what do i mean by that? ok sit back down, dont get mad, its ok, heres some information thats going to hurt, just calm down,…you want to bring up FT% stats? LOL…are you serious? 3rd of all time huh? wow..amazing…what does that mean? it means jack shit…Peja Stojacovic is also on that top ten list, and Scott Skiles, and Ray Allen and the all time leader, Mark Price…and Rick Barry, and Calvin Murphy…ok so why am i putting these names in the mix? because you failed to say that Free Throw stats, although might mean something to you and make you excited, dont mean anything unless you back them up with other stats….that means that you can make a shot while standing there..no defense, no blockers, just standing there…and although some of these names are Legends and can be considered great and even Top 50, thats because they did other things, not because they made free throws…as you might have noticed also, there are no MVPs listed on there except for Nash..the only REAL MVP in the top ten for free throw% is Larry Bird at #9…but while we are at it, lets also talk about the AMAZING 3point% stats….yeah, that makes him an MVP…NOT…lets see who else is on the list…
#1. Jason Kapono….who? i think he won the 3point contest..yeah…thats what hes known for..
#2. Steve Kerr…hmm heard the name before, all star? MVP? none of the above
#3. Hubert Davis….who?
#4. Drazen Petrovic….who?
#5. Tim Leglar…yeah, the broadcaster right?

LOL…should i go on? we can go through the whole top ten, even top 20 like this and it will still lead right back to what i was saying…the stat might make you excited but it means NOTHING to everyone else….and makes NO difference in getting an MVP….so if those stats are the best stats that you can come up with, then lay back down because you have no reason at all to keep typing….LOL…

and you said that Nash was MVP because he did what? “to get what he has gotten out of his team(s) is pretty amazing” ummm what has he gotten? championship rings? multiple finals appearances? i dont think so, he hasnt done squat…..Marion and Amare would have been All Stars anyway….if you want to be real, for some reason, Dallas was in the Finals AFTER Nash left…LOLOL…maybe if Nash left the Suns they might get somewhere…

SO, as you and everyone else here can plainly see, i have knocked you down, threw you in the coffin and nailed it shut but i keep hearing these faint screams every once in a while…oh well, it must be the wind…you have been played, punked out, ridiculed and you have been made my personal bitch for days now…so why dont you just accept it for what its worth…give up…ask the Suns fans what they think about Nash, ask your mom and your kids, ask any NBA player, hell ask Steve Nash himself, they will all say the same thing i have been saying this whole time…NASH DIDNT DESERVE ANY AWARDS…physically, he has them, nothing i can do, but there has never been as much bitching and complaining about someone receiving an award that wasnt due then when Nash got his MVP awards…are we all haters? no, we see the truth…Nash is not worthy, and you cant say otherwise without proof…which you havent brought up yet…you just keep bringing up Bird and his “horrible” defense, which somehow made All NBA Defensive 2nd Team, so someone on here can make comparisons with him and Nash….Steve Nash couldnt carry Larry Birds jockstrap AFTER a game…so please dont bring him up again in the same paragraph as Nash…i dont understand what type of bond you and Nash have for you to be riding him so well…something happened somewhere in the locker room after a game or something? maybe some secret down low story we cant know about…because there is no way someone would keep defending him after being proven wrong so many times over, and over, and over, and over…..

Cousy and Magic had HOFers, your right, they DESERVED their MVPS…Nash either paid someone off or did some special favors for some people to get the MVP the first time, i cant even imagine what he did to get it the second time….again, no proof, no stats, no reasons, nothing to prove Nash was worthy of anything except “A large, well educated, well informed, close to the game Panel voted for Nash” who was based on politics and the pretty boy face of the NBA…and of course theres you….who once again have been drowned in your own words…”just thought I’d expose more of your insane, silly points made in your last post…your exposed, you are weak, give up”…now that remark fits perfectly……Nuff said

Posted by: REALESTVOICE on March 5th, 2008 at 3:22 pm

You guys need a time out.

Posted by: Brian Spencer on March 5th, 2008 at 3:24 pm

lol…you are right…i have said my part over and over but he keeps coming up with the same lines…the author of this post started a subject…is Nash overrated? i answered and so did other people who had valid points..but this guy doesnt know when to quit even when outnumbered…oh well, i guess we will see what he has to say after that…..theres nothing really left to say…LOL

Posted by: REALESTVOICE on March 5th, 2008 at 3:57 pm

Once again you fail to see the light, you’ve been beat, thwarted and failed in every attempt to get up and prove anything! I can’t believe I continue to get on here and write to a lowly, geeky little punk like yourself who truly only has a hate for an individual basketball player that won 2 awards that he certainly deserved to win.
Oh, where to start my goofy little, faggy friend???
Starting with you lame remarks about the shooting and the stats of others…if you actually reread your post then read mine you will understand…or maybe not because your little mind is too dense and full of horseshit. YOU insinuated that he was a poor SHOOTER, not in the league of other great shooters – I merely brought up the facts and stats to PROVE otherwise – IF YOU can’t see that than you truly are an ignorant idiot! Of course you can’t see that because you STILL believe that it’s a POLITICAL conspiracy! LOL!!!!! what a joke you are…That’s your only argument! it was all politically driven by the league – was BUSH involved? oh wait, is this GW??? it all makes sense now…
As far as ‘supporters’ – they have long left this stupid argument a long time ago – seeing as it’s no use to attempt to argue with a bunch of losers such as yourself (I don’t blame them, listening to you is like listening to your Mom in bed – screaming like a little whore she is). You’ll never get it, never understand – you obviously don’t understand the game, never have, never will – you have proven it with your repeated attempts to convince yourself that Nash was not MVP material. Good stuff! thumbs up! your smart…you got it right! dumbass…lol.
You’re a joke, you make me laugh – over and over because its so funny that such a weak, little person actually believes he/she is right, correct over the democracy of the NBA voters. I’m sure you’ll be on a board at the end of the year when the guy you want to win does not win the MVP – trying to make the same arguments over and over again…boring…I’m sure your wife/husband kids think the same of you…boring. If they want (as I’m sure they do), I can come by and spice things up?
So, I’ll let you get up off your knees – I’ll even help you up, it’s something Nash would do – an assist and good gesture.
WAIT! stay down! I’m not finished! I’m not Nash. However, I will let you carry my jockstrap after my game tomorrow night – if not, send me your address and I’ll mail it to you – sure you’ll get off on it either way.

peace.

Posted by: Joejacobi on March 5th, 2008 at 4:05 pm

true…not sure why this guy keeps coming back when it’s continually proven over and over again…he’s done.

Posted by: Joejacobi on March 5th, 2008 at 4:06 pm

now whos mad? im faggy? LOLOLOL u sound upset…awwwwwwwww…..poor baby….and bringing my mom into it…thats a stat to help convince people that Nash can actually play…where did u cut and paste that line from? LOLOL…so to finish this, as i have done too many times already, the reason you keep writing to this lowly geek is because you dont like to lose…simple and plain..you dont like to be proven wrong…and that is all that i have done over and over..and im the one that has been doing it consistently so im the one that you get so upset with…its ok…i can tell you have no more bullshit facts to bring up because you have already forgotten about the real problem and started remarking about my family….that means you have nothing else to say…so you just change the subject again…LOL..

also, what the hell is …”faggy”? is that a word? or did you just put that in your post because your daddy has called you faggy too long and you wanted me to explain it to you? i cant explain it because i dont know what it means…i guess it could imply “faggot” but i wouldnt know anything about that, i guess you really are up to date on your homo remarks, it probably gives your dad and his “faggy” son something to talk about…i dont know anything about gay terms and words..but i guess you do from getting facials in the gay clubs all the time…i guess your daddy taught you well, sorry, i was never shown anything of that nature…

i really really dont understand why you would keep defending that Nash is in the “league of other great shooters”, he has never averaged over 20 points a games in any regular season in his whole career…but you are still trying to prove that he can shoot and make points…LOL…maybe you meant that he is a great shooter who DOESNT make points…that might make more sense..you might have been confusing him with your daddy who is a great shooter and has shot it in you mouth many times….great FG%…LOLOL

everyone else has given up on responding to you because we have abused you enough and some people actually feel sorry for you…you have not made a point in any of your posts..in my last post i brought up that having a good FG% and 3-point% meant nothing in choosing an MVP but i guess you didnt have anything to go against that right? LOLOL..just lame family and mom jokes right…it figures..so really there is nothing for me to say because you once again have no facts…just changing the subject as always….LOL..so if you would like to keep posting on here then please post something useful…i know it gets frustrating when you have no facts left and nothing that you can bring up…you retort to trying to put people down and make yourself hard by bringing up things that have nothing at all to do with the subject…but its ok, i can play that game too..you want to get off the subject, then we can do that…

i asked my wife and kids if they wanted you to come over but my wife said that we already have a female dog for a pet, so what use would it be for another bitch to come visit…unless your daughter wanted to come over again, shes pretty good…i thought she was as good as your mom so the last time she came over after doing another amazing job while she was on her knees, i had to ask her where she got those skills? she told me that her daddy lives on his knees and you taught her everything you knew…so in a way, i have to thank you for showing her how to blow and also how to swallow…THANK YOU…im sure you are a multiple MVP in that and have won the back to back to back titles in dick-blowing….you have totally taken over the league since your dad retired….i must give credit where credit is due…you and your family are well known and legends in the industry…and if anyone wants to argue that, i have stats, pics and video to prove it….thanks for the great times, and if you want to send me anything at all, just ask your mom, wife, sister or daughter for my address, they all have it memorized…Nuff’ said

Posted by: REALESTVOICE on March 5th, 2008 at 5:31 pm

Damn, Joe and Realest are taking it a little too far. I just want to add a few things.

1. I don’t have a problem with Nash’s 1st MVP, there really anyone else other than Duncan and Shaq,but the second was a joke. Face it, MVPs in since Nash have been on the best teams in the West. Proof comes from last years winner, and the one currently in first place this year(Not nearly as much as last year, and it’s hard for alot of people to choose.) Seriously, LBJ should have won in Nash’s 2nd MVP year, as well as last year, but since the Cavs were in the East, it had to go to Nash and then Dirk. He had better numbers all around than those two, and his team had good position in the playoffs. He should get it this year, but since Kobe(My favorite player BTW) is on the Lakers who might finish in the top 2 in the West, he will most likely win it.

2. Some people didn’t look at my last few posts. Nash doesn’t take many shots(only between 8-13 a game), which leads to a higher FG%. Also alot of the 3s he hits that I see are usually wide open or close to wide open, which leads to the higher 3%.

3. MVPs need more than just assists. True, assists are good to have, and 10+ is good, but fact is the other guy has to make the shot, and Nash has some of the best shooters when left open. All in all assists are over-rated.

4.Joe, before you say anything about Magic, remember he gave over 20 points, 6 rebounds,and over 1.5 steals a game during his MVP seasons. He deserved those 3 MVPS, Nash didn’t deserve the second.

5.Joe, you are wrong about Bird. He wasn’t a terrible defender like Nash is. Bird was just average. Not only that, but the 80s were and are considered the best years in the NBA. It had the best talent. Not to mention I think he was on the defensive second team a few times. Nash can’t be compared to Bird because Bird gave just about everything; all Nash truely gives is assists(which like I said are over-rated).

6. As it is, I can name 4 or 5 PGs who are better than Nash this year.

7. Yes I played basketball, but I couldn’t make a career of it because of a knee injury I haven’t truely recovered from.

8. Finally, you two need to calm down(I think I pretty much speak for everyone here).

Posted by: Marcus on March 5th, 2008 at 6:14 pm

agreed to far…however, the personal attacks were started by the guy. My apologies, should have not went to down to his level. It could go on but no need to respond to that above…lol.

Marcus, I never said anything about Magic??? I believe all I said is he played with HOF’s????
Disagree with the ‘shooting’ ability of Nash, I’ve already alluded to his ALL TIME stats and what it takes to be a PG and have a high FG%. Just read above – easy to understand, not sure what else I’ve missed?

Marcus, what’s this with BIRD comparison’s? I didn’t compare the 2 as players? I just said Bird did not play great one on one ‘d’ – he got in passing lanes etc. This is the problem with posting on these sites or chat rooms – things that are said get twisted or forgotten when writing your own comment – I’m to blame as well.

Agreed – I can name 2-3 PG’s who are playing better than Nash this year. He just doesn’t seem to have a ‘flow’ this year…maybe age? injuries? who knows?

I’m done, no need to defend Nash’s accomplishments – a democracy voted – nuff said.

Posted by: Joejacobi on March 5th, 2008 at 7:06 pm

I have read this whole column cuz a friend told me about it and all I can say is Damn! First things first, Nash is over rated becuz all he does well is assists. I read about his Field Goal % and all that but that doesnt make a difference if hes not scoring. He doesnt take many shots anyway. I think he might have deserved the 1st MVP but James, Kobe and even Duncan could have won that award. I cant say it was politics but no one knows why he was chosen for the 2nd one. I guess they flipped a coin. I am older, so, in my younger years I got the chance to see Larry Bird play in the Garden with some good seats. I had season tickets and I was close enough to talk to the bench. JJoe, you have no idea what you are talking about. Larry made All Defensive Team like 3 or 4 times. How can you say he was terrible? You really must be crazy. To compare Nash to Larry is a disgrace. Nash is a passer, thats it, nothing more. Please dont get offensive when someone has an opinion. You seem to go off on ohther roads when you have nothing to back your postings up. Everyone just calm down, lets leave the moms and families out of it and talk basketball. By the way, Mr. Thell, great subject, even though it has gone all over, you make some valid points. Over rated and nowhere near the top for MVP voting this year.

Bless

Posted by: tripledouble on March 5th, 2008 at 7:34 pm

Joe, I just said that about Magic if because someone might bash him because he was known for assists.

Posted by: Marcus on March 6th, 2008 at 8:44 am

Has anyone noticed the glaring discrepancy in the evaluation of the current candidates for MVP’s versus the times when Nash and Dirk won theirs? All of a sudden when there is a discussion of differences between the players, all the commentators are referring to the defensive differences between Kobe and Lebron, the “all around game” offensively and defensively of CP3 and Kevin Garnett? Why is it that defense is now apart of the equation.

Posted by: Sixnine on March 6th, 2008 at 9:32 pm

**Posted by: Benjamin on February 27th, 2008 at 4:41 am **

**… or that people don’t respect Bowen’s defense and just call him a hack. Some very strange ideas. **

hey a-hole, watch this -> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8WXVJQ06Sk

f*ckin dirty players..

Posted by: GhiaElcid on March 14th, 2008 at 8:27 pm

nash is exactly a modern day bob cousy (who couldn’t defend too), and cousy was a MVP. the reason is guard defence isn’t that vital to the defence of a team, and thus the value of a great PG who can lead, pass n score outweights a guard like kidd who can defend but cannot score.

Posted by: yongk on April 6th, 2008 at 11:16 pm

Steve Nash is totally overrated, I agree and I wrote a post here about it:

http://www.everythingisoverrated.com/?p=20

Posted by: Vince on April 25th, 2008 at 9:06 am

Steve nash is not the first overrated NBA MVP. A few years before him was AI, who was a selfish, high-scoring ballhog with a terrible shot selection and a very low FG% (I would take Nash over Iverson anyday). Shaq should have won the MVP that year, not Iverson. (Would you believe the big diesel only won a single MVP?)

The Mailman, although a great power forward, was overrated as an MVP. He won his 1st because everybody was tired of giving the MVP trophy to his Airness every year, so they decided to give it to Malone that year. Besides Stockton (who was a better all-around point guard than Nash) always made him look better than he actually was.

Dirk is a perfect example of an overrated MVP. Duncan is an example of a really deserving MVP by winning both regular season and playoffs MVP. Same goes with Shaq. There are 3 major reasons why Steve Nash will always be overrated: 1. his inability to guard anybody. 2. winning consecutive MVP’s and 3. not being successful in the playoffs (despite having so many All-Star teammates throughout his career). Is Steve valuable? Definitely. But as great as Steve Nash is, he has not yet been proven as a winner. And for that reason alone, he is overrated.

Posted by: marc on December 11th, 2008 at 12:55 am

Actually Harold Reemus Steve Nash Is Canadian And all you haters yall know nash is nice admit it you say they were holding teams 2 97 pts per game is that the reason they went 33-49 record. But when nash came 2 da picture they were the best in the west so stop.

Posted by: Brad on January 2nd, 2009 at 6:25 pm

This article is just plain unfounded. It’s so misinformed it’s not even funny. First of all, even though Nash’s teams have given up 100+ PPG, they’ve also led the league in scoring 7 STRAIGHT SEASONS. They’ve also led the league in FG % most of those seasons, if not all. Also like many others have said Nash doesn’t guard opposing All Star PG’s. Finally, Nash didn’t get his MVPs cause of his stats, he got his first for bringing a 40-win turnaround to his team and his second for leading his team to a 54-win record WITHOUT their 3 big men. He also basically established Stoudemire, Marion and Joe Johnson’s careers. Last but not least, keep in mind that the MVP is not awarded for great postseason play, that’s why it’s called the REGULAR SEASON MVP. Therefore it doesn’t matter that Nash has gotten eliminated in the playoffs (even though they should have been the rightful 2007 champs, what with Tim Donaghee making a totally BS play).

Posted by: andrew on April 23rd, 2009 at 9:25 pm

I live in Phoenix and I am a very large Suns fan. That being said, Nash is OVER RATED. It is onre thing to see his numbers on espn and make your decision, but I get to watch Nash every game here in Phoenix. I will tell you first hand that we will never win a title with Nash at point. Even when we had Marbury, our team did not win as many games but we were solid overall because Marbury played defense. And if we had kept Kidd, we might already have a title.

Posted by: Shannon on June 15th, 2009 at 4:23 pm

I’ve been a Phoenix Suns fans for over 20 years and I’ve seen this team’s fair share of players come and go from superstars to no-name pine riders. However, when KJ retired and J.Kidd was a bust, they looked for new blood in the PG department. Steve Nash (who was originally drafted and played with the Suns before he blossomed in Dallas) became the perfect fit. However, to compare him to the greatest PG of all time, John Stockton is completely insane and always will be unless Nash can get Phoenix to Finals. KJ did that. In Stockton’s heyday he was better than Nash in nearly all facets of the game except 3-pointers. You can compare the numbers and say that Nash outscores him, he’s a better ballhandler, but truth be told I’ve watched NBA since the 80′s to now and Stockton was hands down, flat-out, straight-up, don’t get it twisted, the BEST point guard of all time. Not just career-wise, but all-the-damn-time-wise. in the 89-90 season all of Stockton’s stats are similar and better in some categories than Nash’s MVP season.

Posted by: 1800LAZERFACE on April 28th, 2010 at 4:35 pm

Leave a Comment



(will not be displayed)